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@ SuperDave
2025-03-01 01:25:26
FeyssPalmer, if we ever meet in person, the drink of your choice is on me. And, I thank you for an equally thoughtful and respectful exchange. I hope I understand your view correctly, that what we consider “morality” is the natural result of generational selection that fosters a more stable and functional society. Those traits are the ones passed on to our progeny. And, we have decided to call those traits “morality.” If so, then this pragmatic approach requires nothing more than to pass those traits on. No God required.
But I think that makes my point. The standards for what is a “good” society change with the wind, nothing is more arbitrary than that. Good by consensus changes with time and geography, as one empire supplants another. What perpetuates certain members of our species can also justify the worst crimes. Without an external law Giver, however, these actions are not “crimes”. And yes, I think you see my view correctly, an unchanging standard of morality must exist, or there is none. And, yes, my list of gods was woefully inadequate. You can lump all pantheistic religions into being part of the system they measure, therefore subjective. But the One that must exist outside the system in order to judge fairly is also the One that offers the way to pay for those crimes. He offers Himself. Not just the self sacrifice of a good man, but the Lawgiver Himself. And we, who were quite evil and selfish, are changed into better people as a result. That is what is fundamentally different about the person of Jesus Christ among all the ancient agrarian or early bronze age religions you listed.
Ultimately, I think your system lacks justice. Evil can be hidden and never made right. And I think your system allows evil to grow, under the justification that it is for the “greater good” of the species. And, from what I have read of your words, you definitely value truth, you truly value people, and you innately know there is a right and wrong. You claim that is the result of favorable genes. The Bible claims that God puts eternity into our hearts (Ecclesiastes 3:11). We know there is something after we die, but we purposely suppress this knowledge because we choose evil rather than good (Romans 1:16-32). There is a Moral Law, we know some things are right and wrong, but there is also something wrong with us because we know what’s right but don’t do it. I know you don’t see the Bible as authority. I only quote those two versus because I am not the source of truth, nor do I claim to be able to define right or wrong for myself. My human attempts at that put myself first and hurt other people. I only can point others to the One who does show us what is good. Because He made us in His image, all of us, and He is of intrinsic and infinite value, we therefore have value. That is why murder is wrong. God will seek justice for the innocent, He will not just let that go. He is merciful, but he is also just. Ok, this tome does not answer all your very legitimate questions and objections. It is too long already. But I hope that at the bare minimum, as a result of our exchange, there are two more people that understand each other better and truly want the best for the other. If you choose to respond, I’ll definitely read and consider your words, even a short response, but I’ll close out the thread.