@ The Bitcoin Infinity Show

This is the AI-generated transcript from Bitcoin Infinity Show #126 with Derek Ross, lightly cleaned up for clarity and readability. It might not be perfect, but it's pretty good! Check out <http://bitcoininfinity.com/> for all our books, merch, and more! # Welcoming Derek **Luke:** Derek, welcome to the Bitcoin Infinity Show. Thanks so much for joining us. **Derek:** Thanks for having me. **Knut:** Yeah. Hi. Glad to have you here, Derek. so let's start off with, the TLDR. who are you and why **Derek:** Well, it's, my dad liked Bo Derek, so he chose the name Derek. I don't know if we want to go that far back. # Introducing Derek Ross **Derek:** I fell in love with Nostr, back in December of, 2022 when Jack Dorsey, discovered Nostr when he was looking for projects to fund and a bunch of Bitcoin developers and Bitcoiners said, Hey, you should fund Nostr and check out Nostr. So a lot of Bitcoiners checked out Nostr at the same time too, and I found out that I could build Basic services on Nostr, because it was pretty simple to do so and add a few bells and whistles for people. I just really embraced the technology, really embraced what Nostr could mean for the world and started talking about Nostr And now, that's my passion. I love going around to conferences, Bitcoin conferences, building and growing Nostr, and that's kind of, I guess, brought me to you guys today. **Luke:** Yeah, I mean, we're here at Nostriga, basically the beginning of Nostriga. Still the morning has happened. Yes. But, this place is awesome. We had the Noob day yesterday, and you gave. Nostr 101 at the Noob Day, and so I don't think we need Nostr 101 for this audience necessarily, but can you at least do like a broad strokes of the important points of Nostr just so we have a little bit of a baseline? **Knut:** And # The Basics of Nostr **Derek:** Well, Nostr is decentralized and censorship resistant, and if that sounds familiar, it's because it shares a lot of the same ethos that Bitcoin shares. So I recognized immediately, you know, how important Bitcoin is for the world. Like I've been a Bitcoiner for a few years now, and I recognize that Nostr shares a lot of the same ethos, where it is censorship resistant, decentralized. You can control your social information similarly to Bitcoin, where you can control which financial rules you decide to run on your own node. So it gives you A lot of ownership over your financial transactions for Bitcoin. Nostr gives you a lot of ownership over your social transactions, so I really liked the correlation to the two that really resonated with me. it was really easy to understand if Bitcoin is the freedom to transact, then Nostr is the freedom to communicate, and I really liked that relationship. I really recognized that social media is broken and Nostr fixes a lot of that by giving the power and the choice back to users. I really think that that paired with a portable digital social identity that you own and you control for the very first time that you can take with you. To whatever application, whatever social application you want to use, it's just really unique because you can't log into Twitter, take your social graph and then log into TikTok with it. You know, you just can't do that now. Nostr, you could technically do that. You could have a video streaming app and you log into an audio streaming app or a podcast app or your general social app, and you have the same followers, the same social graph, your contact list, everything is all there. And that, that's really, really neat. And I think that that's a unique thing that we've never had before. you explain the social graph in a little bit of detail? Yeah. So your, your social graph is basically who you are social with. It's your, you know, your circle of friends, your followers, the people you interact with on a daily basis in traditional social media that varies from different app to app. You had, you would have to ask everybody. Hey, what's your Instagram account? I want to follow you there. What's your Twitter account? I want to follow you there. So your social graph is all of your, the people you interact with, the people you follow, the people that follow you. you're able to bring that with you with Nostr, no matter what app you sign into, all of that comes with you. that's all portable. your social circle, your social experience. **Luke:** Yeah. so the key feature of Nostr in that respect is this portability, but this is all still tied down by the, public private key cryptography similar to Bitcoin. In fact, it's the same, cryptography setup as Bitcoin. **Derek:** Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So just like Bitcoin, you know, you, you want to keep your private key safe. Nostr is the same way. Your private key unlocks access to your social identity, just like your Bitcoin private key unlocks access to your Bitcoin. So you want to keep them safe. You want to make sure that you're, you're practicing safe nsex and you're, you're storing your, Yeah, like, I like that dad joke. It's a good one. But you make sure that key is secure and you're not putting that key into random applications because like I said, it unlocks your identity. **Luke:** Yeah. I mean, I think on a practical level, that actually is kind of a scary thing in this early days of Nostr, because first of all, people who are into the Nostr environment early are going to get this extremely strong web of trust with other early Nostr users. **Derek:** Oh man, this is a fighting point. Like the Nostr is decentralized. So there's no correct way to say it. I've heard Nostr, Nostr, Nostra, like whatever you want. It's just like the logo. There's no official logo. You know, you can make a logo and you can use it. You can make your own saying and use it. **Luke:** Nostr actually seems like the **Derek:** say, **Knut:** we'll go with no **Derek:** I, you know, the next time you're gonna have somebody else in your show, they're gonna say Nostr. It's just how it is. **Luke:** Totally. # Trust, Reputation, and Identity **Luke:** I mean, the decentralization aspect of it, that's good. But the, so, okay, I think that the point I was getting at is that, yeah, these NSECs are really actually valuable in the sense of that, nothing is going to, from this point onward, if someone loses their NSEC, you're not really going to get back the same kind of network in the same way. **Derek:** yeah, that's a valid point. If I spent, let's say, a year building my reputation, building my web of trust, my social graph. And then I leak my NSEC accidentally, I have to start all over again, and that's going to be hard because I essentially lost the last year's worth of work. I lost all that proof of work. Now, people that know you and interact with you, people you've met in person, they'll immediately, transfer that trust to the new identity, but everybody else that doesn't physically know you, that's going to take time to rebuild that. **Luke:** Yeah, and, okay, this is, a point here. Why is it important to have this trust and reputation? Why does Nostr need that to work? **Derek:** Well, I think that, in Bitcoin, we say, don't trust verify. But, I think that a certain level of trust for certain social interactions has to happen. You know, if we're constantly afraid of interacting with other humans or, you know, stepping outside our comfort zone and being social with humans because we need verification, it just, paints a negative picture. It, I think that a certain level of Trust will allow us to be more human, more social because we do have to trust for certain aspects of life. And if we don't want a third party to have to KYC us and we have to play by all sorts of other rules, I think that our reputation becomes our identity. And that allows us to have all these new types of experiences, new types of interactions. Like if I wanted to sell something on Nostr. I have a lot of people that follow me and they say, Hey, I tried to sell something on Nostr and I wasn't able to do it. I said, Oh, I've sold stuff on Nostr. They're like, yeah, but you're Derek. And you have a lot of people that follow you. And then I've had people. Come to me and say, hey, can you reshare this item that I'm selling to gain exposure because I have a lot of people that follow me and I say, well, I don't know if I want to do that. I told a guy recently, I didn't know if I wanted to do that because I didn't know them. He wasn't in my web of trust and I didn't want to promote essentially his item that he was selling. Because I didn't know who he was. Now, if he was in my web of trust, maybe Luke, if you were selling something and you wanted me to, I know you, I I've interacted with you. Sure. You're in my web of trust. I will help you out. I will reshare the item you're selling. And I think that that type of trust in. You know, human interactions is okay. # Breaking Nostr **Knut:** one question I have about this whole thing and that, I still haven't wrapped my head around is like. It's super simple to fire up a cryptographic key pair. So, what's preventing basically DDoS attacks and someone firing up a ton of these and like,   **Derek:** there's essentially really nothing preventing it. We had a Bitcoin Core developer. Ron Stoner, I believe, recently. He decided to show this exact example. And he mined like four million end pubs and he sent a million of them to follow Will from Damus and just to show that, this is essentially an exploit. maybe, we need clients to start to look at low, I'll call them low value key, accounts that don't really follow anybody that have no credit. interactions, that look like they're spam because ultimately anybody can create an infinite number of new keys. Like that's just, that's kind of how it works. **Knut:** Yeah, I know Twitter's way of mitigating that is probably the blue check nowadays, like where they, I love that they kick the celebrities off of their high horses and like now everyone can get a blue check. It's just a small payment per month. I don't know if it's 8 or something, but as I understand it, that's the way to fight the bots because like you need to get above a threshold. **Derek:** And that kind of exists, in a way on Nostr. So Nostr has, it's not the same type of verification that you would have on Twitter because nothing is truly being verified except for A website exists that says this person has some way of updating a file on this webpage, it's a NIP05 Nostr address. **Luke:** Nostr Improvement Protocol, **Derek:** Improvement Protocol, or no, Nostr Implementation Possibility. Yes. because you don't have to implement it if you don't want to. If you don't want to implement it, you don't have to. And possibility was a miss, it was proposal I was thinking of, but yeah, possibility. Proposal. Yeah. that rings a bell. . Yeah, so, with these Nostr addresses, like, you can kind of have Some type of verification that somebody exists, but then bots could sit there and just spin up new accounts and constantly just verify themselves over and over and over again. So that's not a really good spam, mitigation technique. I think the best that we have right now is rate limiting and relays. being paid. It's kind of a paywall. So there's free relays that are public that anybody can write to. But then there is also the paid relays where maybe it's a monthly fee. Maybe it's a one time fee, yearly fee, but it's some type of paywall. # Nostr's Relay Architecture **Luke:** Can you lightly refresh the relay client, **Derek:** Sure, sure. So Clients are just like your web browser, or just like your email browser, your email client, your email application. They connect to relays that store all of your Nostr data. Relays are just like, servers, they're nodes, and they store all of your events, all your nodes, all your Nostr content. A client then connects to, All these different relays that a user would be utilizing and downloads or pulls the content from the relays. And then the user sends the content to the relays for other people to pull, to pull down. The relays are the real, real, like dumb part of Nostr. They don't really do anything overly exciting besides store and house information where clients are the power houses. Clients are the ones that are unique and doing all the, Unique, features and displaying the content differently. **Knut:** so is there a risk that it goes the same route as SMTP and email and we end up with your Hotmail and your Gmails are **Derek:** centralized servers. Like there's like, what I can remember running email servers, you know, two decades ago and it was like no big deal. And now it's a lot harder. you basically get blacklisted by all the big, all the big companies, for, for being an unknown new host, essentially. Could we see that? Maybe, but there's a new methodology that clients are starting to adopt that drastically improves decentralization. Right now, we would have to, on the majority of clients right now, for us to communicate and know each other exists on Nostr, we would have to share at least one relay in common. So that way our content is both sent to and pulled from at least one server that we have in common. So we know each other exists and we can communicate that way. Which means you could then have centralization issues where everybody could be using the same Ten whatever relays in common, and you really don't want that in a true decentralized model. So there's a new methodology that developers are slowly starting to implement in their clients. It's referred to as the outbox model, and the way that this works is that the client will look at all of the people, or all the end pubs, the profiles that A user is following and go out to that user's relays where they're publishing their content and pull the content down from that user's relays instead of the initial user's relays. So it drastically improves decentralization because the two users don't have to share a relay in common. The client does all the work pulling the content down from whichever the relays are. So I could, in theory, publish all of my content to just like the Derek relay. And if your client supports this new type of outbox model and you don't use the Derek relay, you could still see my content because your client knows to go to the Derek relay to get Derek's content. **Knut:** but nothing is forcing people to implement this model. Right. **Derek:** No, no, no, exactly. So that, that's why right now we don't have every single client across Nostr using it, but if clients are built with the, NDK, the Nostr development toolkit, Outbox is supported by default now. Snort, Iris, Amethyst, Coracle, I believe. There's a handful of clients that support it now. And Dalmas doesn't have it yet. Primal doesn't have it yet, but their developers are both committed to adding it in the future. Once all the major clients are doing it, it's like a social consensus at that point. And just a quick follow on, on this. I think the distinction, the reason this works in my understanding, right. Is that most of these relays would be anyone can read, but you have to have access to write to it. is that correct? Yeah. Well, yeah. For example, like for my relay, anybody can read from my relay, but only, I only allow my wife and I to write to my relay, but since everybody in the world can read from it with the outbox model, you don't have to specifically tell your client. Your client will know where my content is and go to my relay to get it for **Luke:** right? So a model that actually would in fact work in this scenario is someone signs up for maybe one or two big paid relays, something like that. And that relay just lets anyone read from it. Then this outbox model would just let people pull down from those paid relays. I think we'll see in the future a lot more smaller community based relays just because that methodology will just work like right now. If you have all sorts of smaller community relays, you have to know where the people you follow publish their content. **Derek:** And then if they would start publishing it on a new relay and no longer use that relay, you could lose contact with that person. So this new method will fix that. # Nostr User Experience and Adoption **Knut:** It's, I mean, all of this sounds complicated, and I think like, do, does Nostr get the masses, like, and can it be fixed with, improved user interfaces and stuff? Like how? there's always a trade off between usability and security, right? So like, how do you see that **Derek:** I like to say that technology works best once it fades into the background. You should not know The protocol that you're using. You shouldn't know how all of the sausage is made. You should just know, man, I like sausage. It's delicious. Like, that's all you need to know. Right? and Nostr needs to, to get to that level. Are we there yet? Definitely not. relays are important, but maybe in the future, whenever a new user signs in, they don't actually really need to choose the relays that often. Maybe it's just going to randomize. You know, there's a thousand relays out there just randomly picks, six relays or something, a half a dozen relays at random. So it's drastically increasing decentralization. And it does all this in the background. And then under an advanced setting, you can add your own personal one or something like that. most people won't ever go into advanced settings. they'll just use their app because everything else just fades into the background. They'll just use it. They won't need to know to go in to add media servers or they won't know to go in and configure relays. The clients will just do all of this for them because the technology stack has improved to the point where this can be done.   **Knut:** yeah, I'm going to continue on the devil's advocate, like **Derek:** Fire away. We need **Knut:** attack vectors here. # Ethical Concerns and Open Protocols **Knut:** so since it's so open and anyone can develop Nostr stuff, like right now you have the ethos and like all the developers, like, I love that all of these young 180 IQ developers are now, they're not making shitcoins anymore and They're all on Nostr, and like, I love that fact, because that's, that's the right usage of that brainpower. But going forward, and if this really takes off, or when this really takes off, don't you see, don't you think you'll see, people with not as ethical intentions get into the space and try to like, take over? **Derek:** Yeah, I mean, sure. I think that, you know, Nostr is an open protocol. So anything will be tried because it can be tried because it's open. But then we need to look at the free market and we need to look at staying open. If Nostr is truly permissionless, then yes, shitcoiners should be able to come build on Nostr. I don't want to use their clients. I won't recommend anybody. they should be able to come and try to build something because Nostr is open and maybe they'll only have their shitcoin corner of Nostr and they'll have their own community over here. The rest of us won't be using that. And that's probably okay. Well, **Knut:** It's all about optionality, right? **Derek:** that I think is the issue that Nostr really solves is because it's giving people choice. And in legacy social media, you don't really have a lot of choice. You need to use what is spoon fed to you. So if somebody wants to come build, you know, Ethereum tipping or Solana tipping or something on Nostr, I mean, that's, Cool. Like I'm not going to use it. I'm not going to tell my wife that she now needs to Ethereum zap me, but the fact that somebody could do it would prove that Nostr really is permissionless and open. **Knut:** Yeah, this leads me directly to a deeper philosophical question. # Hypernostrification vs. Hyperbitcoinization **Derek:** Yeah. Because, in your mind, what happens first? Hypernostrification or hyperbitcoinization? And the reason I ask this now is like, because if we get hyperbitcoinization first, then it might be harder for, for shitcoins Oh yeah. **Knut:** But in your mind, what happens first of the two?   **Knut:** I don't know. Again, we're going to go to a Derekism, another saying I like to say. I like to say that the purple pill helps the orange pill go down. So it's lube.   **Derek:** I think that we see more Nostr adoption first, and that helps with Bitcoin adoption through just ease of use and fun and frictionless manners. I really think that, we know the money's broken, but social's also broken too. I don't think, The world is entirely going to move to Bitcoin. we're going to see hyperbitcoinization in the next couple of years, but maybe we'll see hyper Nostrification in the next couple of years as applications slowly start to rebuild and try out Nostr and see how that works for them. And then from there, they get on boarded to Bitcoin through that. **Knut:** So the reason that the web is broken, and the reason social media is broken, is that because of bad money. Like, what's the correlation there? Like, have you thought about that? **Derek:** Maybe I like to think back to, you know, two decades ago, if you wanted to run a server out of your house to run your own media server, your own, you know, photos, your own documents, you know, movies, music, whatever you wanted to do, any type of social. you really couldn't do it. Like we didn't really have the infrastructure or the technology to really do it. It was very expensive to run a server at home. we didn't have point and click installs for the average person. We didn't have point and click, you know, setups for in configurations for routers, we just didn't have the technology. For the average person to do it, you know, if, if you're a, you know, systems administrator, network engineer, sure, you can do all that stuff. I mean, I was doing that 20 years ago too, but nobody else, you know, besides people in that like profession really did that. Nowadays, you can spend 50 and buy a raspberry pi and Install piece of software on it and touch a couple buttons and boom, you can deploy all these home services. I think that since we couldn't do that 20 years ago, 30 years ago, we moved the technology stack into these large data centers where. The technology existed for people to run these services because they had the software, they had the high bandwidth, they had the fast servers, computers. So we moved everything into these data centers and we trusted these large technology companies because they had the resources to do that. But then as technology improves, the infrastructure improves. Software improves and becomes easier. Now we can start pulling that out of the data center and the users can do it at home. I don't think it's related to bad money. I just think it's related to, you know, we were early, so we moved to centralization because we had to, and now that we've advanced enough, now we can kind of. Recapture that and pull it back. **Knut:** Yeah.   **Luke:** I actually like that argument for this because I mean, it's the gold thing, right? Like the gold physically couldn't do these things, but now Bitcoin does that. so gold centralized into vaults. Because that was just the way that **Knut:** And fiat solved that problem. **Luke:** exactly. so now maybe what you're saying is that, yeah, at the time, the actual server infrastructure had to be centralized like that. And now there's a decentralized alternative. I can buy that. **Derek:** and here's, a thought on this, maybe fiat money and, you know, our kids take the bill and pushing things forward faster and faster, that led to the computer revolution and the internet revolution. If that had been done in a sounder way, then maybe the internet would have developed slower, but in a more sound way, maybe, you know, technology bills getting published And money printing to fund, you know, so they just build fast and quick and they built too fast. Maybe it wasn't sustainable. The only way to be sustainable was to centralize who knows. It's all related to bad money. I get it. **Knut:** My tip is to not spend 50 on a raspberry pi, but spend a couple of hundred bucks and buy a start 9 instead. **Luke:** something that, Definitely has the slightly more resources. And I mean, I think definitely, we, we had, someone asked the question at the noob day about, about running relays and everything. And I mean, it's great that people are actually wanting to do the self sovereign thing with Nostr the same way as they, Do with the Bitcoin nodes and stuff. And it's great to see that these like node in the box **Derek:** Yeah. **Luke:** are making that easy for people. # Running Your Own Relay **Luke:** So maybe, maybe here's like a, like a practical thing, just like a little bit on running your own relay and being as self sovereign as possible. And Nostr, do you have some thoughts on that? **Derek:** Yeah. So I personally run two different relays. I run a relay on my phone just to basically act as a place for my DMs and my offline notes to go. So I can have my, I'm sorry, not DMs. I meant drafts. The other D with drafts for my drafts to go. And then for my offline notes to go, I run a relay in my house for my wife and I to use, as I had mentioned earlier. And I do a little bit more of a complicated method because I want my relay in my house to be accessible from the outside world. That piece of the puzzle was still a little bit technical because you have to configure some network settings to allow the outside world to connect in to a computer that you're running at home. So that, portion of it isn't like point and click easy yet. But, if you do have a start nine or you do have an umbral, you can point and click to have a relay at home installed. And then while you're at home on, Wi Fi or if you have a desktop, it's hardwired, whatever, anything that's on your home network can easily use those local relays. And then if you want to access them from the outside world, you have to know that networking piece that I was just talking about, or you need to use like a home VPN. Or something like tail scale. And then you can accomplish that. # Onboarding and User Accessibility **Knut:** so when will my 78 year old mother, fire up a Nostr, keep her? **Derek:** I don't know. Maybe does she use social media now? **Knut:** Yeah, she does. **Derek:** What does she use? **Knut:** Facebook, mainly. **Derek:** Okay. Well, maybe someday I think Facebook's going to be a holdout on this. Maybe we'll see Elon do it in the next, two or three years, but I think someday we'll see a large legacy. Traditional social media client turn into a very highly customized Nostr client and users really won't even know it. They'll custody the keys for the user, give you a username and password. They'll do all of that stuff. It'll be a, filtered relay, maybe moderated relay, who knows. But it'll essentially look the same and function the same for users, except they'll be connected to the Nostrverse. they'll be publishing publicly to Nostr, and they won't even know it yet. So maybe when that happens, then she'll have her keys. Otherwise, I think the onboarding process needs to be improved a little bit **Knut:** Mm hmm. **Derek:** We can have 78 year olds, actively using Nostr. I think it needs to be easier. **Knut:** Boomer. **Derek:** Yeah. **Luke:** Well, some 78 year olds are more tech savvy than others, **Knut:** yes, most of them are more tech savvy than my mother for sure. **Luke:** there you go. # Beyond Twitter Alternatives **Luke:** But this actually leads to another point here, is that the Twitter alternatives are really the clients that are the big thing. And actually, I think even people who are in the Nostr ecosystem already, Don't really do much outside of these Twitter alternatives, but there are other ways to display the Nostr information that looks a lot different, right? Can you go into that a little bit? **Derek:** yeah, I think that the reasons that Twitter alternatives are the most popular is because that's what we needed most, you know, and that's what was the most popular use case in the beginning, and it still holds true today, but it's also because These applications kind of manage the key for you, like on your device. And a lot of this other stuff, a lot of these new unique use cases are web applications, they're websites, and people don't want to just go and paste their private key, their NSEC into a random website, which you should never do anyways. I found out that using extensions is something a lot of people don't use. Like, with my app, NostrNest. com, so many people just don't use extensions. And you need to use an extension to sign in. The extension manages your key for you on the web. It acts as like your key management signing device. And a lot of people just don't use it. I would tell them, oh, you need to use an extension. They're like, well, how do I use an extension? It's like, oh, you just need to go here and install that. And so many people just aren't familiar with it. It's really, that was really surprising to me. my point is that the other stuff, while it can be exciting unique and cool, it's not used as much because I think signing into all these web apps is, Very different from the average user. They're used to using a username and password. They're not used to having to go and install an extension in Safari or install a whole nother web browser on Android or a whole nother app, to access a website. That's weird. it's a little too different. And once that workflow improves, then maybe we'll see, your Twitch alternative or your, medium alternative, blow up. And become more popular. **Luke:** Well, and actually the funny thing is the experience. Once you have the extension set up and you just go **Derek:** Oh, it's easy clients, like frictionless, it's perfect. But once you get over that hurdle of installing the extension, putting your private key into it and logging into that first website where it says, Hey, you're trying to log in and this website wants to know who you are. Do you want to allow it? Yes. you're going to post something and you know, do you want to have this post to your profile? Yes. Once you understand how that works, then it's a no brainer, but it's just that first technical hurdle that so many people struggle with. But hopefully we Nostr developers can make this easier, in the coming future. **Luke:** it's the natural innovation beyond because, a lot of services had been adopting a password lists, authentication model, basically just send a code to your email address. and I like that model. I think that's a lot more secure. You just have to worry about your email being secure But then you go, one, next level, and it's everything is from that key pair. we are Nostr pilled as far as the use case and what it is. But it comes down to, I think, a little more of the pain points and the usability of it, # Nostr Algorithms **Luke:** I will use Nostr, like the, the feed and everything, but I'll also use the, the Twitter feed as well because there's just so much more information on that. and the thing is, my current thing that I would like to see improvement on, or at least my ability to make my own improvements on is the algorithm selection. and I know you've got a talk, coming up about this, like how to tailor your own algorithm, basically. And so before I give any other specific questions on this topic, could you preview, what you're going to talk about in terms of how to **Derek:** Sure. So even though there is no blockchain, time chain, whatever for Nostr, I like to say that Nostr is a proof of work protocol because there are no algorithms at the protocol level. And the content isn't necessarily all the time brought forward for you. You're not spoonfed content. So that means you have to do the work. You have to put in the work to be social. You have to do the work to get discovered and to discover content. And people aren't so much used to that anymore because they're used to being spoonfed a fire hose of content from your major platform. So with Nostr, we have the ability to regain and control our attention. And we can control our social experience. So you have to do the work. You have to go out and comment on people's posts and you have to socially engage. You need to let people know that you're here. You have to make your voice heard. You have to interact with people. You have to just be social. And it's really, it's just an interesting take because right now on these traditional platforms, you can kind of just lurk and have a decent experience because you're fed content. And on Nostr, that isn't the case most of the time, but now we have these, algorithm stores that are starting to pop up, where you can use them if you want to, it's not a requirement, which is, you know, like, maybe on, Twitter or Instagram or something like that, like, the algorithm is there, and maybe you can view a different feed, but It's, not the default. and right now, like Nostr clients, the default is your chronological feed. if that's what you want, you can always have it. But if you want to do some algorithm, you can choose to do that. And it's open and transparent. So you could go and look at the algorithm to see what it's doing. And that's just unique. We don't really have that type of user choice. So you can be your own algorithm socially. Or you can use an algorithm that somebody else built. **Knut:** All right. so I think this was sort of, at least partially, an answer to my next question. And this is something I talked to Giacomo about, but because of the very reasons you just mentioned, you get very high quality people on Nostr and people who agree with one another and are nice and friendly to one another and you take care, it's your reputational capital and so on. But. Many people are on Twitter for the opposite reason, that they want to argue with people. So how do we get more assholes on Nostr that are wrong on the internet, you know, and you know, Yeah.   **Derek:** but I like to say that these algorithms on these traditional platforms were built to keep us enraged and engaged because if we're constantly upset and engaged, we're going to be using the application more. We're going to see more ads. Ads are going to make more money. And it's going to fuel them to build bigger, better, more algorithms. We're going to use the app more. We're going to be more engaged and enraged. And it's just a never ending cycle. I think that sure, if somebody wanted to build an asshole algorithm and just only show you controversial, mean content on Nostr, it's open. You can do that. And then they can have their asshole feed, I guess. # Nostr's Competitiveness **Knut:** but, okay, this ties into a more serious point, if the, traditional platforms are optimized for engagement and, you know, to keep you on, how does Nostr take off if it doesn't have that drug, **Derek:** Yeah, sure. I think most humans generally, want to be good people and don't want to be bad and negative all the time. It's just that, media really fuels that clown world also is very upsetting to people sometimes too. And it drives their social experiences that way. another Derek ism is that, we're doom scrolling on other platforms. But humans weren't born to doom scroll, they should bloom scroll, people want to be good, I hope, If you're surrounded by good content, it's going to make you more positive. If you're surrounded by negative content, it's going to make you more negative. **Knut:** yeah, I certainly hope that people will use it more, because it ties into why newspapers that have aggressive headlines and like fearful headlines sell better, because our brains are wired for fear, **Derek:** Yeah, exactly. we need to change that. We need to take it back. We need to use Nostr to take it back. we should be selling good stuff, not bad stuff. I totally agree, Is it going to work in practice? **Knut:** we'll see. **Luke:** actually, so part of the practical thing on this, you can scroll virtually infinitely on these, Twitter apps. But Nostr, there always is some kind of limit. And let me explain what I mean by that. So in Primal, for example, Primal being the app that I use mostly on the web and the phone now, I do like, some others such as, Amethyst, and I've tried other, clients for the web, great to have the variety, but mostly I use Primal for the ease of use factor. You got into this, at the noob day a little bit. but the, the two styles of feed that I get there through Primal is basically a latest. a version of latest and a version of, trending and the ways that, so, okay, not to overcomplicate this exactly, but I like, for example, concepts of, your tribe, the people who you follow and who follow you Li limits based on the web of trust, I think. I think that's good And primal gives you tools to limit. So if you decide you want to see a wider feed, maybe you get the people who your followers follow. And then when I click that, I always get a whole ton of Japanese and Thai stuff like that, right? So, it's funny that it's not quite perfect at that level. To be able to discover new stuff. Okay. I'm, this is actually going to be multiple questions. So maybe we'll start with that one. But how do you discover new stuff on Nostr that isn't the top, top, top most trending thing? Cause this is another side of the problem. but isn't someone that you already know and already follow. # Data Vending Machines (DVMs) **Derek:** so I use my main client is Amethyst and there's several clients now that support these things called DVMs. It stands for Data Vending Machine. it sounds kinda, you know, nerdy but all it is, is an algorithm, really. I mean, an algorithm that is executed when somebody says, hey, I want to obtain this piece of data from you, give it to me. Some of these data vending machines may be free. Some of them may be like a vending machine where you pay it some sats, and then it gives you the data, the algorithms executed after it gets paid. So I use DVMs to find new content. Like that's part of that whole algorithm to discover content. There's all sorts of different ones. Like maybe I want to. Find, popular notes of cats or dogs, fluffy friends is what I think it's called. Or maybe I want to find, a trending, or there's a new DVM that was suggested recently. It's really cool. it finds the latest note from people you follow. So if you constantly are posting in the feed every single day, all day long, and then there's other people that maybe post once a week or something, you would never see their content because they're always drowned out by more active users. So this new data vending machine, like algorithm, it'll go out there and find just the top latest note from somebody you follow. So it's just a feed of like latest notes and that's a way to find content that you. Might generally miss, and that there's actually one called, something like what, while you were away or find content while you weren't active, or something like that on Nostr. And it tries to find content for you that way. There's all these unique ways to find content and now that they're showing up more and more clients like no strudel and cortical. Coracle does some really neat stuff on, discoverability, finding content now. And this gets back to building your own algorithm. If you want that and you use these clients and it helps you, you find content and you're right. Like sometimes they're not perfect. Like maybe you'll see some, content from other languages, you know, but you know, that, yeah. **Luke:** It's fine that that exists. It's just not relevant to me at all. I mean, I know there are **Derek:** that's a feature, maybe that's a filter or something like that on a client that needs to be built in is only show content from my native, or from my language that I normally post in, or my locale, or something like that is a way to maybe that's a new DVM right there. If we just figured it out, we need, Well, how do users find information on DVMs? yeah, well, if you're at, this gets back to the, we're early and Nostr is very technical. They're onboarding on Nostr as a whole generally sucks. It does because it's technical. We need more explanations or we need things to be simpler. And because these things, neither of these exist, there's probably a lot of people that use maybe Amethyst or maybe use. Nostrudel or Coracle that have no clue what these things are. today, Primal announced their DVM store. Their, algorithm marketplace, essentially. And they do it very, very well. It's gonna be, it looks like it's gonna be kind of front and center for you to choose. And you can configure your feed with just a toggle radio button. It looks like it's designed really, really nice. And maybe we'll see some of this user experience slip over to other clients, because right now you can get to them on several other clients, but they need a little bit more work, I think, to be, more user friendly. **Luke:** Sure, and well, okay, and so, you find this stuff even by asking where to find this stuff on Nostr? **Derek:** I can give you a website, I don't know the name of it, but it's something like datavendingmachines. com or nostrdvms. com, I don't remember the exact domain name, but it lists them all and explains what they are and how they work. You should, we should have some of that in app, I think, to have a better user experience. **Luke:** And how difficult is it to make your own? **Derek:** to make your own DVM or to use one. **Luke:** even, for example, just configure it **Derek:** To make your own DVM, you probably need to be a Nostr developer. You need to know how to do some development programming. But if you want to utilize one, it's just a few clicks of a button. The most configurable one that exists today, Coracle. You can build these custom feeds with DVMs, with hashtags, with lists of people, with all sorts of stuff, and you can build a very, very user customized, feed, and I believe Damus NoteDeck is going to have something similar like that, too, where in the future, they'll have these algorithm stores and all these different types of feeds that you're going to be able to very easily point and click and build these feeds, but to build your own feed, Custom DVM, yeah, you should probably be a developer for that. Otherwise, you'll just use somebody else's DVM that they built. **Luke:** Okay, and then, so, I guess the engagement side of it. That's the other way to so called build your own feed? **Derek:** right, like if, and this kind of mimics the real world, right, if we're standing outside in the conference hall and you and Knut are talking and I want to interject in the conversation, I'm not gonna just stand there off to the side and hope that you look at me and say, hey, do you want to talk? I gotta go over and stand there and I gotta join the conversation. And that's really what you need to do on Nostr. if somebody is posting, commenting, replying, whatever, if you want to join the conversation, you need to join the conversation. You need to comment and talk too. And then those people are going to be like, Oh, hey, look, Derek's replying. **Luke:** I don't know who he is, but now he's joined the conversation. I liked his reply. Maybe I want to follow him. And it just mimics real world in that. and as I understand it, the primal algorithm is largely reply based, like, the, the trending is, is, notes that get a lot of, replies, and, that, that's, that's important for that algorithm, and that's, this is actually one of these things I would like to personally be able to, to, to toggle, is, is, I don't necessarily look for the things that have the most interest. replies, maybe I want it, maybe I want, because that's engagement, maybe I want the things that, that have the most likes, or, the most zaps, that one, that one's easy, I like that, that one's usually, pretty available and all this, **Derek:** yeah, the mentioning the Primal algorithm for their trending is an interesting topic because over the past year, like when they first announced trending I think their signal indicator might have been zaps and people were doing like fake zaps just to show that this could be gamed and then Primal went back and retooled a little bit and then it was people were doing like spamming like thousands and thousands of reactions and then hitting trending again. It's an open protocol. Anybody's going to do anything. And then, you know, Primal went back again and retooled and made their algorithm better and, then they, once they, hit a working model that couldn't be gamed as easily, then they published it very transparent. This is how our algorithm works. You can go review it all on GitHub, yada, yada, yada. And, you know, that's kind of where we're at today. I think that, having an algorithm or having a DVM or something that, You could customize, Hey, I want to see most likes or most zaps or most replies. I think that's cool with it. Cause maybe your signal indicator is different than mine. And you'll have the one from, the client, like however their algorithm is configured, but maybe you can go in and configure your algorithm just a little bit differently because you like comments, but you want to see those big zaps and there actually is a DVM for top zaps or something like that. **Luke:** It sounds like there's something for everyone here, it's just a matter of figuring out how to use it **Knut:** It's sort of like the saying with Bitcoin. Bitcoin is for everyone and people pointing out that no, it's not. It's for anyone. Yeah, and that's a better description. **Luke:** Well, and actually this is another philosophical question here, right, because still we're going to get people that come into this who aren't going to want to do any customization. They just want to come in and have it work and be like their Twitter. And then what happens is that the default algorithm of the largest app turns into the new **Derek:** into like the default. **Luke:** yeah, which also turns into the things that people see and all of this. **Derek:** well, right now, as far as I know, there are no clients that the default feed that you get is an algorithm. I think you have to go in and configure that and change that and choose to do that. As long as that stays the case. You know, the chronological, some people might say chronological order is its own algorithm, but as long as the, chronological algorithm is the default one, I really don't see that's that big of a deal, but even if it is, we have user choice, you're right. If the most popular client would automatically say, Hey, We're gonna switch to using this algorithm. Whenever Facebook makes a feed change, or Twitter would make a feed change, you know people are up in arms and they yell and they complain, but you can't do anything about it. Well, Nostr's different. You, you literally can, you can say, well, I'm going to use a new client. So I'm curious what would happen if, the most popular client makes a major change like this, they change the algorithm, the default algorithm, would everybody really do what they say they want to do on Facebook? Like I'm never using Facebook again because you changed my feed. Well, they can't go anywhere else. So they stick to Facebook, but now you could. So would people actually move to another app? Funny that you should say that, because that's one of the things that made me leave Facebook, right? Because they actually did some social experiment by pissing people off but now you would have a choice, right? Like, so that opens up a whole new **Knut:** yeah, and I could take my posts with me. **Derek:** You take your content, your social graph with you. so maybe we won't see that, or maybe once someone does it, they shoot some self in the foot and they're like, Oh, we don't, maybe we shouldn't do this. We should give users a choice. # The Permanency of Online Content **Knut:** There's another thing about the social graph and the permanency of it, like how permanent it is, because everyone should know that anything you do on the internet is as permanent as a tattoo. And that's why you can't delete posts from Nostr, like the whole deleting of data is a mirage. It's not real. you can delete, but not every relay is going to honor that request. but what I'm coming to here is that, is that going to scare people that their stupid post from when they were 15 years old will be there forever? **Derek:** Well, what I'd be curious about is, on legacy social platforms, when you hit delete, Is it actually deleted from a database or is it just flagged as deleted and don't show again? probably the latter. Yeah, so probably, you can screenshot stuff. Like if you post something on the internet, it's literally never going to go away. **Knut:** People just need to learn this. So maybe Nostr is the way that they learn that, because it's more honest. **Derek:** it is more honest. Like I can make a request for a deletion from every relay that my content exists on. **Knut:** Yeah. **Derek:** If I, you know, let's say there's a thousand relays and 999 of them delete the content, but one of them says, yeah, I'm going to archive everything, I'm not deleting it. Well, then it still exists on the internet, like it just, so that's why we say there's no delete. Yeah, maybe you're right, maybe it is the most honest that you can request it to be deleted, but there's no guarantee that the request is going to be honored. **Luke:** Good. Yeah. okay. # Getting the Most Out of Nostr **Luke:** So, the principles of Nostr seem to be getting pretty clear here that, it's all about this portability, this decentralization, this new way of doing things, and yes, there is going to be some. Switchover, that people have to do to, really get the most out of it. But, that said, there's so much cool stuff going on, that once you make that switch, there's this whole new world of it. And, for me personally, the biggest thing that's prevented me from going all in is, I guess I just, haven't got quite The right thing, the right feed, the engagement. I mean, I think timezone right now plays a big role here, because when is everyone actually active? How do you get involved in conversations? For Europe, it's a bit tough. You almost have to post on Nostr in the European evening to get any engagement with North American users, which at the moment are the majority. At least in the English speaking world. **Derek:** That doesn't really happen unless you specifically seek. That on Nostr. So a little hack about being your own algorithm that I've used over the past, year and a half or so is, you know, people used to say it was bad form to retweet your own tweets, but you need to do that. You need to boost your own content on Nostr. You need to, I do it specifically for different time zones. Like you said, you know, maybe I posted something really good. In 8 o'clock in the morning and then six hours later, I'm like, you know what? There's more people up and out and about in the world right now. I'm going to boost that because I thought that was really good. I don't do it for every single one of my notes because that's probably overkill. But maybe once or twice a day, if I thought I did something, I think, man, that needs more views. So this gets back to being your own algorithm. So I would say try that. People aren't going to hate on you for it. people understand that you need to be your own algorithm and bring your own content forward. **Knut:** know how Nostr reminds me that I should be more careful on the internet because like sometimes I accidentally like posts that I want to, I want to declick the button and make the like go away, but it doesn't. **Derek:** But well, so that depends on the client. So what that would do is that would send a delete request **Knut:** yeah, exactly what we talked about before. Yeah, to all like amethyst supports on, you know, unliking, but it sends a delete request to all the relays saying, Hey, delete that, that reaction. that's the thing. It's, it reminds me of what's actually going on under the hood while the other social media platforms just are optimized for make it simple for the user. Yeah. # Nostr vs Bitcoin **Knut:** to take this in a slightly different direction and, a final point here, we've found out why you're so bullish on Nostr. Why are you bullish on Bitcoin? Like what's, what's your, what are you most excited for in the Bitcoin space right now? **Derek:** The most exciting thing about Bitcoin for me is to see these developing communities around the world, like using Bitcoin because it's better than their corrupt money. they're inflated money. And seeing them being able to save for the very first time and being able to essentially like be their own bank, you know, banking the unbanked and just being better money for them. I think that is so cool. Like I absolutely love watching all these videos of Communities around the world bettering themselves and educating their youth or children on money and finances and seeing the kids being able to have better lives because of this. Like that's the use case. It's cool. wealth preservation is cool. I understand, sound money Everything is broken, after reading, Safedine's, the fiat standard. thinking about Bitcoin is another element there's a lot of interesting use cases and ways to think about it. But my favorite is, communities having these circular economies and bettering themselves. **Knut:** Great. **Luke:** Yeah, fantastic answer and very much aligned with us. And, since we've been, poking at different bits of Nostr this whole time, I also was hoping to end on a, on a optimistic note on the Nostr side as, as well. # Most Exciting Projects on Nostr **Luke:** So what are you most excited about that's coming up right now? What do you think is going to make the biggest impact in what you're aware of? **Derek:** There's so many really cool projects out there. Oh man. there's probably ones being demonstrated right now that I've never even, you know, wasn't aware of. I really like the ability to have, so the, There's a Nostr app called zap. store. It is a Google Play or App Store, replacement, FOSS, built on Nostr. It allows us to see, applications that are reviewed and installed by our web of trust. So An application that's really popular and has good reviews by people, you know, people that are in your web of trust versus who knows who they are, if they're bots or whatever on, you know, these other app stores. I think that that's a very neat use case. You know, we see problems in the Bitcoin ecosystem where apps get removed from app stores all the time, And it just seems that everything is getting choked in this regard. So I think that's a neat use case, especially what's been going on in the Bitcoin ecosystem. I'm really excited to see that continue to grow and get fleshed out. I think just. Everything being able to be more interoperable on Nostr. I'm really bullish for the next big thing to be built on Nostr and then all these other clients to be like, wow, I want to implement it. And then they all implement it. And that feature then is used everywhere, but there's just so much stuff. It's hard to be bullish on one thing. Like, you know, Pablo's, Nutsack, Cashew wallet is really cool. **Luke:** Yeah. What a **Derek:** It takes balls to decide the kind of name. does. **Knut:** All right. # Wrapping Up **Derek:** So other than Nostr, where can people find you on the internet know what? I got tired of Odell yelling about Nostr only and me being a huge Nostr bull, not being Nostr only. So a couple of months ago I deleted everything. It's all gone. I have no Twitter. I have no Facebook. I have no Instagram, no LinkedIn. I'm Nostr only. **Knut:** All right. **Derek:** you want to find me, You need to go to Nostr because I don't exist anywhere else anymore. **Luke:** any specific things that you're working on that you'd like to tell us **Derek:** So the most exciting thing that I've personally done recently is I organized a community led Nostr booth at BTC Prague, where I basically said to the community, Hey, Nostr needs to have a big presence so we can purple pill Prague. Let's have a booth. I want developers to be able to come to the booth, talk to their users, talk about their products. Getting a booth is expensive. And a lot of these indie, smaller developers, can't afford that. So what if they just donate a little bit of Bitcoin? We pooled those funds together. We had maybe a couple larger, Developers, sponsors, and we pull all these funds together. We have this Nostr booth. it was great. I think it was one of the most well received booths. I'm a little biased there, but it was busy for three days straight. We had tons of people there all the time. everybody that I talked to absolutely loved it. It was great to see. the whole Nostr community come together for this, essentially an educational slash marketing effort really to help grow Nostr and teach and educate people about Nostr. I'm excited to do it again. Like I don't know when and where, but I want to do it again. I think it was great and I would love to have the same initiative at some point in the near future. **Luke:** thanks a lot for coming on. **Derek:** for having me. **Luke:** We could probably continue to try and pick your encyclopedic brain on the Nostr stuff, but we'll give you a break. We know you've got another panel **Derek:** So enjoy the rest of the conference. Thanks again, Derek. This has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show. All right. Thank you