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This is the full AI-generated transcript of Bitcoin Infinity Show #130 with Obi Nwosu! If you'd like to support us, check out bitcoininfinityshow.com for all our books, merch, and more! # Welcoming Obi Nwosu **Luke:** Obi, welcome for the first time to the Bitcoin Infinity Show. **Obi:** well, **Knut:** We rebranded. **Obi:** what is time in infinity? No, no, it's the second time, great to have you back. yeah, we have, it's been a wild ride and the journey is just beginning. So yeah, thank you. # The Launch of Fedi   **Knut:** so Fedimin launched, two weeks ago. Is it the Fedi **Obi:** Fedi, launched? **Knut:** launched? Yeah. These terms. **Obi:** no, no, Fedi Mint launched, effectively Fedi Mint launched nearly five years ago. FediMint is a very old technology, very, you know, the first, the first FediMint transaction, where someone used FediMint e cash over Lightning to buy a cup of coffee, which was after, you know, a year plus of development was on, I believe it was the 3rd of the 8th, 3rd of August, 2021. **Obi:** And so we're trying to, like you have a Bitcoin Infinity Day, we're suggesting, that was actually Erik, my, the inventor of Fedi Mint. from Parinelli Police, just actually, and so I like to think of that as e cash coffee day. Cause actually it was like, you actually bought the cup of coffee with e cash. **Obi:** so yeah, but yeah, Fedi finally launched two weeks ago. **Knut:** All right. so I think, for those who haven't seen the previous episode with you, if they want to know more about you, we should probably go back to that episode, but I think you're going to have to do the TLDR on what Fedi is for our listeners. Like that's a good start, I think. **Obi:** So yeah, and now we can be clear about what Fedi is. And so Fedi, is two things still. Even Fedi is two things. One is the company called Fedi and the other is this product called Fedi. So if we talk about the product that people have on their phone, Fedi is a community super app. And so it's an app that takes the best of freedom technology. **Obi:** it's got Bitcoin functionality in it, Lightning connectivity, obviously FediMint for handling community custody. but it's also got Nostr support and any other freedom technology that's out there that's mature and reliable. We've taken the time to integrate into one simple to use app. So it allows you to have chat. **Obi:** We use Matrix as this federated, decentralized, encrypted chat protocol. It has money with the combination of Lightning, Bitcoin, and Fediment and more. So it has a built in web browser inside it. And therefore you can access all of the Bitcoin ecosystem of apps from Bitrefill to Unleash. chat to BTCmaps and beyond. **Obi:** All in one place. So you don't have to have this smorgasbord of different apps and tabs open one app to use them all. And the app itself, we announced as well, is now source available and will eventually be open source as well. So we're trying to make the best of it. portal into the freedom technology space. **Obi:** So that's Fedi. And then Fedi the company builds the Fedi app. And we also have something we call the FedEye Order, which is, this selection of incredible people, FedEye Knights, who are on the ground and they, you can think of them as like a Decentralized genius bar. If you've got an iPhone, you have the genius bar that goes along with the phone. **Obi:** The reason why the iPhone is so amazing is not just the phone, but it's also the incredible support you can get. If you can go to an Apple store and you go to the genius bar, they can help you. we have that instead of it being in, you know, Fifth Avenue or Oxford street in London or so on. **Obi:** It's in, the capital of Togo or Uganda or. Guatemala, or so on. On the ground, they will locate communities, they will educate communities. and they will support communities on Bitcoin, on Lightning, on FediMent, on all of these different websites and services that are out there to provide that sort of support that's needed for the communities that are outside of the existing Bitcoin space. # How Federations Work **Knut:** Okay, great. so how does a federation work? **Obi:** so the first thing you have to do, wherever you custody is where you transact and do and you live and so on, which is why. Banks try very much when you're young to get you to hold a bank account with them because they know that most people never leave and then all other services are provided. So how do you actually custody? **Obi:** For many people they've had two choices. Either they do everything themselves and that's the best if you can do it just like it's the best to be able to build and fix your own car or house but not everybody can do that but that is always the best because no one's going to love you. And put as much care in as yourself. **Obi:** The other extreme is to fully outsource it, fully give it to some private party, which is actually what ends up 95 percent plus people doing, and that's putting their money on a Coinbase or some other centralized service. and the same with communication. They would use some sort of centralized service. **Obi:** They would use a WhatsApp, an X. com, a Telegram, a WeChat or so on. They would use some centralized chat. And if you think about it. Our lives are communication and money and value. So both those things, most people outsource, some people take it in house. If I want to set up a federation, which is to do with the custody of the money, where FedeMint is this middle, middle house, I can find within my community, a number of trusted parties. **Obi:** We call them guardians. So let's say. You found us three plus, you know, your great t shirt, Greg Voss. The minimum we suggest is four for various Esoteric reasons From a cryptographic security point of view we suggest four, but you can have seven You can have you can keep growing you could have we've seen people have seen Federation stood up with as many as 40 people in them And it will get slower and slower if it gets beyond that, but, but technically you can. **Obi:** It'll be this, it'll create this huge multisig, i. e. multiple people have to sign before you do a transaction on chain. And so multisig starts to get expensive of a certain size. But let's say us three plus Greg. We would FedeMint software. we would download the 30 minute software onto a machine that we have spare, and we would set up and run it. **Obi:** The setup process will, part of it will enter the information about the other three. And we make that very simple, it's a web interface, you point and click and you get a code and you share that code with the other parties, everybody shares the code of each other. Maybe you go into a group chat and paste each other's code. **Obi:** Everybody copies each other's, enters it into our own FediMint and then they connect to each other and they form a federation. As long as you keep that box, running, connected to the internet, and connected to electricity, the federation, for each, all the four, the federation are one. **Obi:** But because it's a federation, if one of them, for example, had a power cut, or lost their internet, or had to change their domain name, or something like that, The other three will be able to continue and operate. Yep, so you've now created this community custody platform. Now, anyone with the FEDI app or any other app that supports the FEDIMINT protocol, Webimint, and we're hoping that many others will set up FEDIMINT wallets, like there are multiple Lightning wallets in future. **Obi:** Any FDI min wallet compatible wallets like Fedie, can connect to your federation At the end of setting up the fed min server will show a QR code and the string that represents how to connect to your Federation. So you could take your Fed app, or the Mutiny wallet, or Web Mint, or any other, fed mint compatible wallet, and you'll scan that QR code. **Obi:** And you've now connected to that federation and that federation becomes, you can now use it to custody. Now, what will happen is, if for example, someone wants to send money to you, you would, just as if you're using a Bitcoin wallet, let's say it's on chain. you would say, I want to receive, enter the amount and it'll show a QR code. **Obi:** Someone else who's using a normal Bitcoin wallet will scan that code and send over the Bitcoin main chain money to you. But what's actually happening is your Fediap is communicating with the Federation. Your Federation is creating a Bitcoin address for you to send to and sends it back to you for you to display. **Obi:** Okay. And then a user, someone else who's using a completely different wallet will send money to that address. Actually goes to the federation and they, the four of us combined will process that and create e cash, which is like a token representation of the **Obi:** Bitcoin. And then the e cash will be sent to you. But the way it, the way it's sent is completely privacy preserving. So the guardians have no way of knowing who they are providing that service for, who's receiving the money. **Obi:** There's full privacy. **Obi:** All right, and neither does the sender, I assume, like the sender doesn't, that they sent Bitcoin to us and address. They have no idea who, so if there are, let's say we set this up and we're using it for our friends and extended family and in total, there are 40 of us or 50 of us **Obi:** When you send to that address, there's no way to know out of those 40 or 50 people who received it or who requested it. **Knut:** All right, so, a bit about the guardians and the multisig, that's obviously because you don't want to have a single point of attack for each, federation, right? **Obi:** point of failure, **Knut:** A single point of **Obi:** the more likely thing is that someone's machine, if you had one machine, the most likely thing that will happen, almost guaranteed, at some point you'll have some sort of power cut or internet cut. Internet cut is probably the most likely you'll, you'll have a glitch on your internet for 30 minutes. **Obi:** If you do, Everyone using your federation won't be able to use your system for 30 minutes. **Knut:** but it's also an attack vector. Like if the, if the, if there's a lot of money in the federation and, so there's, there's an incentive to attack the guardians. Like, can you be completely sure that the guardians don't know each other's identities and stuff like that? Like how, I know you think a lot about the attack vector. **Knut:** So I'm like, can you go into that a bit? **Obi:** can't be completely sure of anything in life. So the answer to that is automatically no. Can you be completely sure of something? but, it depends on the Also, there's an assumption that you have, that the people don't know each other. Cause I think very often in, there's two types of scenarios. **Obi:** It could be that each party completely doesn't know each other, or the more common scenario will be that you're some community or some group of friends. And within you, you've decided. Of the people who are my friends and family and so on, these four people are the ones who are consistently the most reliable, the most trusted and so on. **Obi:** They do know each other, and you know who they are, and it's because you know who they are that you're comfortable with them holding. they're the Uncle Jims of the family. they're known to be reliable. They're known to be people who care about their friends and family. **Obi:** that's very often actually what we're seeing is the more common scenario than the ones where people are completely, anonymous to each other. But as it matures, we may see the other scenario happen as well. # The Uncle Network **Luke:** It's a literal uncle network. I know Uncle Rockstar started the uncle network here on infinity day. Yeah, you got the brother Luke, and so that's four, so we're **Obi:** are you an uncle? **Knut:** am an uncle officially now. **Knut:** an uncle as well, are like, but dubbed by Uncle Rockstar **Obi:** I haven't been dubbed I, so **Obi:** you are a good candidate. candidate, but I am biologically now, an **Knut:** oh, congratulations, **Obi:** Yeah, # How Fedi Launched **Luke:** Okay, well, I think we are looking just to dig in more about Fedi Fedi Mint and, what does your launch actually mean? Because the app has been in beta for quite a while, right? what's happened, to make it that you can launch? **Obi:** Yeah, that's a very good question, because, we, the app from the, if you just focus on the app, from the previous version to the one we went live, there are only a few, changes. It was more about, did we have enough feedback from enough people on the ground that we thought that the product was stable enough, reliable enough? **Obi:** behind the scenes, we've done a lot of internal plus from trusted friends, external security audits of different elements as well. I don't like to publicize it because it's just something we do. We don't think it's something you should promote to saying, Hey, look at what we're doing. We just try to build the best that we can. **Obi:** and the really, big thing was to just say, a lot of people ask, is Fedi ready? And we wanted to get to a line where we thought it was good enough. And we got to that line. And then, we also wanted to have enough proof points in, the world. And again, we got to that line. So these things were separate things that were happening. **Obi:** And finally, it was very clear to us that we wanted to make the software, Ultimately open source. And that was a big call because, you know, we raised 21 million and, normally you go two routes. You go, you raise a little bit and you stay open source and so on. Or you raise a lot and you stay closed source. **Obi:** We believe that, over time, it's going to be considered, over the coming years, it's going to consider that you should always go open source no matter what you're doing, but we're in a transition. Five years ago, raising this much and going open source would be considered crazy, in five years time, raising this much and not being open source would be considered crazy. **Obi:** And we wanted to be, afforded in that. So. We actually went source available. It's called a business source license. So it means you go source available and you set a date where you must go open source or earlier. and we set those. So we cannot change it now. We cannot say we're going to actually change our mind. **Obi:** Well, the only thing we can say is that we're going to go open source earlier. that's the only thing we could do. Or if we decide to shut down, it's automatically open source as well. That's the sort of dead man's switch as well. Or we decide we're no longer going to develop the software. **Obi:** we've added caveats like that, which are not optional, but actually add more restrictions. So no one's going to complain with us going open source earlier. that was agreed and put in place on May the 4th. So May the 4th we review of this year, 2024, just for posterity. **Obi:** we, got enough proof points from different markets, that we felt that we're onto something here. Does that mean that we've finished? No, there's a lot of work to do, but enough to say that the idea of taking all of the best of freedom technologies out there. And putting them into one place and one app that's easy to use is something that's compelling to people. **Obi:** And also we had enough to see the federation model. of this sort of really simple to use and privacy preserving multi sig is also a powerful model. So the model was proven out. And then finally the software, we got to a point where we thought, it's, of course, we've got years of more development, but it was good enough as well. **Obi:** I think that was the final piece. And we thought, okay, we're ready to go. And we then set a date a few weeks after that. But even when we were getting close to it, we started the process of shooting a video because we just wanted to show people are wondering what were we doing for the last nearly two years and we wanted to show that as well.   **Luke:** what's the synopsis of the last two years? Like the big highlights?   **Obi:** so, I always say there's three phases in the business. There's initialization, of a startup, initialization, market product fit, in our case, not product market fit, I can go into why. And then, growth. And so, this phase that was, the end was finally, we crossed the line, on August the 6th, 2024, was the initialization phase. **Obi:** And so, if you think about the analogy of, like you wanted to have A shop selling designer pet clothing, and you've decided you have this crazy idea and you have to first fund it, find the people to build it, and then find the place, set up the store, make the clothes and, open. **Obi:** That's the initialization phase. And then once it's launched, you then. Start figuring out, okay, people come in, there's initial, interest, and then, you have this trickle of people coming in, you have to figure out what do they like, what do they not like, what do I have to adjust until it becomes this sort of regular viable business. **Luke:** That's the market product fit phase. And then you start saying, okay, I've got something that's working fully and then I will repeat it, make more and more and more, Widgets? **Obi:** Doggy fashion, Excel stores, whatever you want to call it. the last two years was our initialization phase. **Obi:** we had this, amazing product with FediMint. we had this initial set of, crazy people with Erik, the inventor of FedEvent, Justin, who's, who was also incredible engineer, who was actually the one who suggested that we make a commercial enterprise. up until that, both myself and Erik just suggested it would be an open source project. **Obi:** And then myself as well with my just, you know, only maybe six or seven months before we were finally finished selling. a Bitcoin exchange, the UK's longest running Bitcoin exchange. and so having that experience of building a company that was profitable and understanding what it meant to build something that custodies a large amount of money for people and provides them services is easy to use and all that sort of stuff. **Obi:** and everything around that customer service, everything around that. So, we were there, I had a visit to the Oslo Freedom Forum, and that was the catalyst. we did one talk at, Bitcoin Miami, and, Alex Gladstein saw that, he suggested I go to Oslo Freedom Forum. I went, my mind was blown and I also realized whenever you're thinking about a business, you have to always think about chicken and the egg and how do you find your initial market for eventually this product is applicable to everybody everywhere, but who's the first use case that has a demand so high that they're going to willing to go through the really buggy early versions and help you. **Obi:** Stabilize it to the point where it's something that people can click a button and it works everywhere. I realized that the community of human rights defenders and later on also humanitarian organizations fit that, need. We really cared about that need and we were concerned, we wanted to help, but we realized that this product could help in combination with the rest of the Bitcoin ecosystem. **Obi:** That's what's quite cool. FediMint is the thing that handles the custody, but you still need to buy things, sell things, find things, and so on, and that's where the Fedi app also comes into play, but without FediMint as the core to handle the custody, the rest didn't make sense. **Obi:** Then we started, it was, then you had this sort of scene from like the Magnificent Seven or so on where you're, you're finding your initial team members. So we found Renato Rodriguez, I chased her for like six months ago. She should have, you know, got a restraining order for six months trying to get her to join. **Obi:** just if you look at the initial team, it was just everybody, the whole team is amazing. But it was just trying to find these incredible people. they tended to just immediately understand the value proposition and the market we were trying to help and were already doing incredibly well in their own careers, but there was something missing for them. **Obi:** And when they saw this, it was like this fulfilled There's some other need that they had beyond the monetary need. The potential was amazing, but the mission side of it was what helped us bring on this incredible team. So I believe in philosophy, people, process, product. The philosophy was amazing, who we're helping, the potential, it's helping people and in so doing we're helping Bitcoin, in so doing we're helping the world. **Obi:** And that's a powerful philosophy and mission and that attracted this incredible group of people. And if you've got the philosophy and you've got an incredible group of people, they will put in the processes that will lead to the right product. **Obi:** It's like, let's say the video, for example. I said to Renata, I want a really powerful launch video and it should be like the best Apple keynote speech combined with a UNICEF or Save the Children commercial. That's it. That's the whole brief and that whole video. And somebody says, you need to go to Madeira. **Obi:** You need to say this. And I just woke up and I say what she says. But the whole elements of it, all of it was her and her team, Mary and marketing and everybody building that over the following X months. and I didn't actually see the video myself. Until less than a month before we launched it for the first time as a rough draft. **Obi:** And it was just basically perfect. My comments were like, I actually didn't have any significant comments, but that was the same for most of the team and the design of the product. We had this incredible designer, Skylar. I would give a brief and so as, Erik's brief was, I just want to be proud of something that I should be proud of, and that was it, you know? **Obi:** And I was like, it just needs to be really simple. And that's the high level. And I might give comments on a little bit here or there, but in general, whenever he gave me it, I would say, well, he Skylarized it, like just Skylarize it. And he would just come up with something that was great. and I think that was the last two years. **Obi:** We had the team we raised. again, the choice of investors was really, really key. I was very, very sure, especially from my previous experiences, that I only wanted Bitcoin on the investors, especially for the first couple of rounds. And when I've sometimes do talks on how to set up a Bitcoin company, my first slide says don't do it, but instead sort of a Bitcoin business, not a Bitcoin startup. **Obi:** And I explain the difference between the two. but one part is, if you do want to raise capital, be really careful about your choice of investors. The wrong investors will, well, and they don't mean to, but they will kill your business without meaning to, but the right investors will. So, we were really, really careful about our choice of investors and the initial team and then the initial team brought on the rest of the team after that. **Obi:** And that was the last, that's the last two years we've set ourself up very well. I did, being a classic entrepreneur, think it'll take six months, took two years. So I, so my estimation on that was a little bit off, but the end result, I'm really excited about. And now, now we're, now we're off to the races. Great news, everyone! Bitcoin, the inverse of clown world is out now. It's the successor to everything divided by 21 million. And it's based on the last two years of podcasts that we've done together. So if you like the show, you're going to love the book. Find the book on bitcoininfinitystore. com or on Amazon. That's right. We have our own store now. BitcoinInfinityStore. com. You can find not just books, but merchandise based on everything divided by 21 million, check out Bitcoin, the inverse of Clown World today and buy some other stuff while you're there too. This show is brought to you by Bit Box, our favorite hardware wallet. It's Swiss engineered and has all the most important security features to keep your Bitcoin safe while keeping a user experience that even your grandma can use. So visit Bit Box. Do Swiss slash Freedom to learn more, or use Code Freedom at checkout for 5% off. And remember, it's the Bit Box zero two Bitcoin only edition. Make sure to get that Bitcoin only firmware. # How does Fedi Make Money? **Knut:** How does the app make money? **Obi:** Yeah. **Knut:** For the company? **Obi:** if you use the app, whenever you use the Freddie app. whenever a transaction happens, which would have occurred a fee. So it's a Bitcoin transaction, e cash or a lightning transaction. We add on an additional fee, 21, 21 basis points. So 0. **Knut:** Oh, yeah, **Obi:** And so, and the good thing is because we can charge in sats and I believe actually even fractions of a sat, it's a progressive tax, which a fee. **Obi:** So what I mean by that is. If you're sending, let's say 100 through, then you would be charged on 100. 21, but if you're, worth of value, but if you're sending through 1, then you'll be charged 0. 21 cents. And if you're sending through 0. 10, you'll be charged 0. 20. 0 to 1 cents. So it'll always be a very small percentage of what you're sending. **Obi:** Now, people might say in certain countries, don't they have mobile money and so on. But the problem is those mobile money systems have minimum fees. And it might be, 1%, which is not that bad, say. And it might be, even in some terms of scale, it could be half a percent, but with a minimum fee of 20 cents. **Obi:** So if you're sending a hundred dollars, that's okay. But if you're sending, 1, that's 20%. And so if you have someone who has a monthly salary of. 10 in some of these markets, that 0. 20 fee starts becoming quite a significant per transaction hit. So therefore it becomes unaffordable for you to use mobile money. **Obi:** So even though it's prolific above a certain wealth level, and so that leaves many people out, in the rain. But because this is progressive, if you're selling 10 cents, the, fee will actually round to zero. I mean it will be a fee, but you'll see it in sats, but if you were showing, trying to show it in local currency, it would basically be, it'll say about zero and then you click and you realize it's this small amount of sats. **Knut:** so, yeah. the big thing that I'm thinking of if I'm like. Playing this out in my head with where this could be in 10 years, like you could run entire virtual nations on a federation, right? If you have the money and the communication and whatever other useful apps, **Obi:** I think the big thing I think is, if you look at the internet, there are large organizations where, people use and they're highly centralized. You have a few people who may be wealthy enough to have their own direct connection to the internet, but the majority of people are connected on the internet. **Obi:** I don't know at this stage, millions of intranets, like household intranets effectively, company intranets and school intranets and so on, where it's one connection to the internet shared by multiple people. That's actually the majority of people. And it's that middle ground between these huge mega organizations that people are connected to one mainframe. **Obi:** With millions of users, I think there are very few of them now, but that was the denominant way at the beginning. It was these huge, centralized ways of connecting AOL, CompuServe, and so on. Now, they're actually relatively rare, but that was at the beginning. All of the internet was that. A few centralized parties, and I would liken them, conceptually in value terms, in value custody terms versus information custody terms, to, a coin basis. **Obi:** And also there were a lot of hobbyists who had their own direct ISDN connection to the internet. but now most people connect through these intranets where they get one router, one connection, and they share with everybody in their household. That would be a criminal of the Uncle Jim federations or in their school or in their football club or in their office. **Obi:** That's probably 95 percent of people and I think that this approach of federated model from the size from. Five or six people up to five or six hundred thousand, that range can cover 80, 90 percent of usage. # How to Use Fedi(Mint) **Luke:** Can we go back to the basics of how feint works in the perspective of someone actually using this thing? So, you explained to us last time how it works, but just for my own sanity, check that I got it. if you are sending e cash within the federation, that is just. **Luke:** Direct between two users. There's not even a record outside of that. No one knows those transactions are even happening. Is that essentially correct? **Obi:** Yeah. So the federation helps you mint technically, because actually the user creates their own e cash, they create their own e cash, but it's unstamped and then they give it to the federation and they stick in an envelope. And they give it to the federation with some carbon copy paper on the inside the envelope as well. **Obi:** the federation collectively signs. So let's say all four people go stamp, stamp, stamp. And that makes it valid. then they give back the envelope to the user. The user then opens the envelope with the cache that they created, just some random piece of data. **Obi:** And they now have this Ucash, but the Ucash they've created now has got the four stamps on it, say, for the four of us. And so anyone else in that federation, any other, person who's also connected to the federation. They can just literally, directly give them this, random set of data. **Obi:** Let's say it's a picture of a fashionable dog and they can just give it to someone else. and the person will receive it and they don't really care what the data says. They just look, are the four stamps on it? Yes. Then it means it was stamped by the Federation, which means it's backed by a certain amount of information. **Obi:** Actual Bitcoin. Yeah. So take the whole, the full path. Someone deposits some Bitcoin in return. They also, along with the Bitcoin, send them an envelope, give them an envelope with this random piece of data in it to the Federation and the Federation receives the Bitcoin. Okay. I've received the Bitcoin envelope. **Obi:** Okay. I've received the Bitcoin. I will stamp. I received one, let's say. 10, 000 Satoshis. So I'm going to take my 10, 000 Satoshi stamp and stamp this envelope with 10, 000 Satoshis, pass it around to the other four, they all stamp the 10, 000 Satoshi stamp. And then give that back to the user. **Obi:** User opens the envelope and says, I've got, okay, I've got an e cash note with, with, that's been proven that the, that it's been validated by the guardians. So as long as we all trust the guardians are holding that and that they will honor this and redeem. That's it. So now I can pass it to anyone in the Federation. **Obi:** They receive it. They look at this picture of the cute dog, but what they're really looking at is, is it got the four stamps on it and it's 10, 000. So that means I've now received 10, 000 token. They can now at some point in the future, Often they do it immediately if they've gone into connection, but they don't have to. **Obi:** They can give it back to the Federation. Federation will receive it and each one will check their own signature of the guardians. Okay, it's properly signed. Therefore, I'm willing to, and they might give them a Bitcoin address to send the money on chain to. **Obi:** So they will receive it, it looks good, they will then, record that this, e cash note has been spent. But they don't know, of all the e cash they received, which one it was, because each one they received in the first place was in an envelope. So was it the first one they received, or the middle one they received? **Obi:** They have no idea. It could have been received yesterday or a month ago. No way. All they know is, I must have stamped it, so it was one of the ones I stamped. And then they will look at the address the person's asking to send the Bitcoin to, and they will take some of the Bitcoin that they're holding in the multi sig that we're holding between the four of us and send it to that address. **Obi:** So that's called Redeem versus Mint. Now, the user experience from a user, we can get onto Lightning, that's another level of complexity, but it's simple just for Bitcoin and eCash for now. **Obi:** Someone sends me Bitcoin or I send it to myself from an outside wallet and I receive e cash. And then someone else in the, in the federation wants to, once I want to pay them some e cash, they will give me, they will give me a QR code to, to scan to pay and I will scan. And literally the e cash that's on my phone gets sent to them directly. **Obi:** From me to them, one to one, that person when they receive it could keep it on their phone or they could say, you know what, I want to send that back to the federation and they can send it back to the federation and then the federation can destroy that, issue them new, fresh e cash in different denominations, maybe not 10, 000, but 10, 1, 000, you know, just like with notes, you could go and get change. **Obi:** Yeah, because if someone transacts, if you're saying it gets sent from one computer, phone being a computer, whatever, one device to another, well, that original device would still **Obi:** Yes, **Luke:** copy of the thing on, right. **Obi:** So they will still have a copy. Now you are in the same, this is where the community aspect works, you are in the same community, If you're in the same community, and the person, it's a merchant and you receive, and your phone will remember when you received what e cash, yeah? **Obi:** Even though it's private, you do know this e cash was received at this time and this time for, and so, especially when you integrate with points of sale, it will say, well, you received this e cash for this purchase. You'll know that. so then if you go to redeem it, at the end of the day, and some of it doesn't match, you will know as the merchant, which e cash was involved in that. **Obi:** You'll say, well, the e cash involved in this transaction. And that transaction was with John. So you've got proof of work. it's the same as if you have a merchant and you receive cash and then you finally got the end of the day to a bank. **Obi:** And some of the notes are counterfeit. Now, you don't find high levels of counterfeit notes in a community where people know each other. It's normally in these widespread communities. But in those scenarios, what most people will do and how the default way the app works is the moment you receive it, it immediately goes off and redeems it and then issues itself back new, new change. **Obi:** Yeah, that seems like a good default implementation. but if you have no internet connectivity, you can still use it and still receive. even if you can't send over the internet, you can create a QR code, which contains the e cash in the QR code, and the person can literally scan it and receive through the screen. **Obi:** Because as long as it's the QR code, the e cash note is just some text. So a QR code can represent that text and you can scan it, even if you have no data. So for example, it could be you're in an area where you have no data, rural, Latin America or so on. But it could also be something more innocuous. **Obi:** You could just be in a big sort of, But the thing is is that you might be at a Glastonbury like concert and there are a thousand phones and there's no data. Or you're in an indoor conference place underground and there's no data. But you can still take payments or the merchant has internet because they're the ones who really need it. **Obi:** But the buyer doesn't and so in which case the merchant has internet because they're connected wired in because they're fixed, but the buyer doesn't need to have internet to pay and the merchant will just take a risk just like in most merchants in high streets they accept a certain amount of breakage and a certain amount of transactions are gonna be charged back by, credit card companies and so on. **Obi:** I used to be a CTO for a major pan-European, online auction company. At the time I was competing with, eBay and so on. we were in a headliner, 300 hundred people working for me in technology. It was a very big technology offering. And we were doing millions of transactions a week. **Obi:** It was very high volume. And in those e commerce sites, you just accept a certain amount of breakage, a certain amount of returns, and a certain amount of chargebacks, even if you do nothing wrong and you just factor it into your costs. For the benefit of the simplicity of the experience. # Fedi and Nostr **Knut:** you mentioned Nostr before, like, what's the marriage between Fedi and Nostr? Well, I would say right now, we are, because I think. **Knut:** we're beyond dating. We're engaged. But we want to really take the two footed tackle of no return, to use a football euphemism. a web of trust thing, right? **Obi:** Yeah, I think, whenever, from the first point I saw Nostr, a lot of people thought it was just social media and so on. **Obi:** I think social media is Trojan horse is the wrong word, but it's the, initial vector by which it infiltrates communities. But what you're actually doing is building a simple, trust system and a simple discovery system. It's a form of decentralized search and it's a form decentralized identity. **Obi:** Cause you, to search, you have to identify things to be able to search. So they're sort of two sides of the same coin. now the first thing you're using it for is identifying people who want to speak publicly and share their thoughts and so on and so forth and follow them and give feedback and like. **Obi:** But it always seemed to me to, way more powerful than that. And I think now people, generally understand it that way. And so, What we've already done, in Fedi, and a lot of developers really like the way it works, if you sign up to Fedi, or if you download the Fedi app and start using it, you, first of all, you don't need to give your email, you don't need to give your phone number because it's not required, but, we do ask you to come up with some sort of Username for yourself. **Obi:** That doesn't even have to be unique, by the way. We will add a unique element at the end, from it. But what we do is, whenever you create that label, which you can change the name, but we create, an NSEC, which is a Nostr, identity effectively. A unique identity and we automatically create that for you. **Obi:** So again, for our users, we don't want to start educating them on the history of Austrian economics and Bitcoin and inflation at the beginning or a Nostr, et cetera, and how it works and relays. And we just want them to start using it. then subtly over time we expose certain features of it. So people become curious and then eventually. **Obi:** You want to learn how this thing that's delivering value works, but we've put proof of work first, proof of talk second. So we educate through letting people see the benefits. And then there might be some people might say, well, how does this car thing work? Or how does this fridge thing work? But I don't need to know how refrigerant works to be able to use a fridge or how microwaves work to use a microwave. **Obi:** When they want to know how all this stuff works, but we benefit first. So, and so and that's how it works with Nostr We immediately give you an NSEC. **Obi:** And so because we've got that if you go and use unleash. chat, for example within the app It will go and you click login and there's one option login by Nostr You click that and it'll just within the app pop up something saying Nostr Do you want to log in with Nostr? And you click yes, and you're logged in and it just works and then you, and then also now you're logged in and then you can, and then you click, deposit money and instead of having to go to a different app, copy and paste the QR codes, it just, it pops up and says, do you, this, this, what the app's asking you to deposit this amount of money? **Obi:** Do you want to go ahead? Yes. And then it's e cash. Is, is converted into lightning and then that you pay by lightning. But from your point of view, there's a circling key for three or four seconds. You have now credited your account. Do you want to withdraw the money back account? You click withdraw the amount. **Obi:** Three or four seconds, it's been withdrawn to your account and, and it's all within the same app. so, but that only works because now if you, close the app or delete the mods, because you can delete these mods or these additional pieces of functionality, they're basically webpages, but the icon for them, and they have an app like experience, but they're actually just webpages. **Obi:** and then you go away and then you delete the app from your service. Like six months later, you come back, you, you, you enter your 12 words, you're, you're re log on. And then if you scan to join a federation again, it will recognize that you were a member of the federation before, and it will reconstitute and recreate all your e cash and put it back on your phone. **Obi:** And then if you click on, Unleash your chat or Stacker News or anyone that supports logging by Nostr. Your login with the same details and so on. So you basically, and we want to make that even more seamless. So from 12 words, your entire life can you think about moving from one mobile phone to another, where you have to move all your apps, your banking apps, your chat apps. **Obi:** And now you could do that with just go and also try moving from an iPhone to an Android phone, Android to an iPhone. It's a nightmare. Here you could just download the Fedi app on your iPhone. this is some far point in the future. You don't have just chat, but you also have voice. You have video, all of that running from encrypted chat. # 12 Magic Words **Obi:** you have access to money from, custody and payments. You have access to all these apps and then you back up 12 words. And there's something we call social backup, which is mind blowing, but, that's in beta. But let's just say backup 12 words, and then you delete that app, go to a different phone, could be an Android or an iPhone, and you just enter 12 words, and your entire thing comes back. **Obi:** Not partially back, but it all will come back. based on just those 12 words and that's only made possible because of Nostr and we want it over time. **Knut:** mean, when you think about it, it's insane. It's already insane with bitcoins, with the 12 magic words, because like every time I pass a security check at an airport, I think that go ahead, have my 200 milliliters of toothpaste. I'll, I have my 12 magic words, like it's the ultimate fuck you to, to anyone trying to meddle with your business, right? **Knut:** that's the dream. I mean, we're not fully there, but it's, I would say it's like, we're like 90 percent there, but to extend beyond just your Bitcoin, Nostr is the protocol that allows us to do that because it's notes and other stuff and the other stuff can be, an encrypted version of the settings and so on that you have that we can store and be willing to pay for. **Obi:** And then when you recover, you have your bitcoin, but then you can go off and send a request to say here, I'm willing to recover this file. Here's some zaps for the file and you get the file back and that additional file then contains the information. Okay, these are the federations you are a member of, you rejoin them. **Obi:** These are the mods that you had, they're reset up. These are the settings you had, they're reset up. And then you log on them automatically using Nostr as well, the NSEC and Nostr login. from your point of view as the user, 12 words, it's back. I mean, you might have to drink a cup of coffee while it's happening, but 5, 10, 20 minutes later, it's back. **Knut:** it's amazing, and it's an inheritance plan. Like, you can live forever by just letting your descendants, giving them the 12 words when you're on your deathbed. **Obi:** backup also becomes really powerful, because social backup means that, cause the 12 words is still another thing to secure. And it's sort of one of these turtles all the way down type scenarios. Okay. We've got all this incredible security Fort Knox like, but behind them, but I walk around the back of the Fort Knox is these 12 words that's stored. **Obi:** you also give one to your cousin and you say, look after this as a backup. And your cousin stores it on a fridge magnet. You know, you don't know, or you don't know your, your, your security is the lowest common denominator. **Obi:** For your 12 words. And **Knut:** is never stronger than the weakest **Obi:** then the weakest link. And so with social backup, which is definitely an early beta. what we can do is use the power of the federation where we can take your 12 words, encrypt them and then split it up between the four guardians in this case, or seven guardians or 40 guardians or whatever. **Obi:** For larger federations, and they all hold a piece of your encrypted piece of your, of **Knut:** is important here. **Obi:** Yeah. Knut, what are you doing over there? I'm stamping my seed. Everyone tells me I should, that it's good for bitcoin security and whatnot, and that I should go balls deep into bitcoin security, so I'm stamping. You don't do it like that, Knut. You don't stamp that seed. You stamp your seed phrase. What? Your seed phrase. Oh, so that's what these things are for. oh, I get it now. That's exactly right, Knut. And you can get everything you need to stamp your seed phrase at stampseed. com. And be sure to check out our limited edition Everything Divided by 21 Million Titanium Seed Plate. And use code INFINITY at checkout for 15 percent off. That's fantastic! And it hurts way less!     # Redundancy in Fedi **Luke:** So this gets me back to what happens when one of the guardians drops off, and if it's like in a permanent way, if that one guardian is holding a piece of everyone else's 12 words, does everyone **Obi:** Yeah. But it uses a prot, this is crypto, where cryptography comes in. So it's not like. We've taken your 12 words and split it up free between four guardians. Instead, you encrypt it using a scheme that allows each one of the four of us to have a cryptographic piece. **Obi:** But as long as any three of us combine our piece together, we can recombine. It is, it's called, SHAIR Secret Sharing Scheme, but it's a way of cryptographically achieving that. **Luke:** Excellent, I think you mentioned last time as well that if a guardian does go down, essentially you can replace that guardian, can you take us through that, adding or replacing a guardian if that ever were to need to happen? **Obi:** replacing a garden is, probably one of the most complex things. And so you wouldn't necessarily replace a guardian, but what you would do is, some, if someone were to go down, there's two different things. The machine. Or the guardian, the actual person. So if the machine goes down, you can set up a new machine and you can recover the status of that. **Obi:** You can, you can download the 30 minute software on that new machine. So that's the actual server that's running. And that will then connect to the rest of the federation and, and carry on. So as long as the guardian has a backup of their keys, they can recover that one machine and, and catch up and it'll automatically catch up. **Obi:** Just like if you turn off a Bitcoin node and turn it on, it will reconnect to the Bitcoin network and catch up. It's a similar concept. so that's if a machine went down, if a machine was temporarily disconnected from the internet or, lost power, it would just restart and reconnect and you will have zero downtime as a user, as long as it's still running and active. **Obi:** And this will all be, you'll notice that the performance will still be the same, but if you went into settings for that federation, you'll see that three of the four are running, so one is not running, but that won't affect your usage. **Obi:** Is the N of M like a ratio, or is it always N 1, for example? It's a ratio. the number of guardians that, you need to have is dependent on how much redundancy. So if you want to be able to handle one guardian going down, then you'll need to have, one times by three plus one. So that's four. So that's why you need three or four. **Obi:** if you want to handle two going down, then you need two times by three plus one, which is seven. So it's five of seven. 7 of 10, 9 of 13, and so on and so forth. You can have more than that, but the time that you get additional redundancy is every 3, but you can have, for example, 4 of 5, if you wanted to. **Obi:** Anyway, so, yeah, in the event that someone goes down, that the machine goes down, you can recover. recently there was an issue where one machine, where two federations, had an issue with the domain name for one of those servers. And so if the domain name for someone is no longer available, you can now, with the update that came out a couple of weeks after that, you can modify, the domain name **Obi:** for a Guardian 30 minute server, and it would communicate that securely with the other, Federation servers and then reconnect and, continue to operate. But it's important to, even in that scenario where the Federa Guardian, the domain name server went down, the Federation itself, Continue to operate because there was still at least free running. **Obi:** So there was no downtime for the user. Whereas if, if we hadn't been federated, then for the one week or so where that was down, the users would have had no access at all, which would be the case where you're connecting to a centralized or a single server, offering. now, if one of the guardians, for some reason, the actual people who are running the Fedemyst server, for some reason, you no longer trusted them, they'd been helpful all their life and all of a sudden they decided, or they've been turned by some, malevolent nefarious actor. **Obi:** Then you, if you could in theory pass to someone else, but in practice, you know, how do I know that the other person isn't still going to continue to operate it and so on and so forth. So what you actually want to do is set up a different federation and transfer people, the other three guardians and inform people with a different set of four people. **Obi:** So those three, plus someone else. And just tell people to transfer their balances across. But transferring balances across is as easy as doing a lightning transaction from one server to another. You can, you know, within the FEDI app, be a member of multiple federations at the same time. I mean, right now, I mean, I'm a bit of a power user, but I'm a member of, over a dozen different federations from around the world. **Obi:** I mean, well over a dozen, I think, yeah. and as we've, I'm sure there's people in the team with way more than that. but obviously I can't advertise the names because many of them are private federations. So, but there's a few public ones, but there's way more private ones. # Interoperability **Luke:** So is the e cash, if you're in multiple federations, is it interoperable there, or it's like a more like a, it's a lightning transaction between those two federations, but it's e cash that lives **Obi:** You got it. It's, E cash lives within its federation, but the interoperability layer for most people is not on chain. It's for the vast majority of people, it's Lightning, so, but the user experience of sending e cash from one person to another in the same federation, sending e cash from one person to someone else receiving Lightning. **Obi:** on a different wallet that's got nothing to do with Ferdie Mint. And finally sending e cash from one person in one federation. To someone else in another federation over the Lightning Network in between is exactly the same. From your point of view, QR code scan and the system will combination of the Fedi app and or whatever Fedi Mint compatible app you're using and Fedi Mint servers will make the experience **Obi:** I just need to send the person the cash. In this case I can send e cash out over Lightning and that's my job is done. And then the other side would be a Lightning wallet and it will receive. And in this case, I will send e cash over Lightning to another federation, but I don't even know if it's another federation, it's just a Lightning address. **Obi:** And then the other federation, receives the transaction and the other 30 minute server receives e cash on the other side. But from a user's point of view, this is the thing that also took the two years to make the experience the same. You just don't have to worry about which one is doing. **Obi:** The fees will be slightly different. One won't have a Lightning component to the fee, e cash to e cash, but, the other two will because it will be like, in both cases, it will be e cash to Lightning, from your point of view. **Luke:** So is there a fee to send e cash to someone else in the same federation? No, I guess. Right. **Obi:** It depends on the federation. the federation, could choose not to charge a fee and many in these times choose not to because they're doing it for friends and family and so on and the fees are minimal. the Ferryman protocol does support, what we call a DDoS fee. So basically you're spending effort time **Obi:** to sign these notes, the issuing is done by the user, but the stamping takes time. you're signing something cryptographically, that's effort. and you're also doing it in a federated manner, so you're coordinating and then you're all collectively signing. **Obi:** So, to avoid DDoS, you can turn on a fee and, by our calculations, it doesn't need to be very large, one sat per note that issued is enough to prevent, because if someone really tried to DDoS you at scale, they could, but on normal sort of consumer laptops or hardware, they'll have to spend, hundreds of thousands a month at that sort of, one sat per note, and in which case you'll say, fine, you're giving me hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of Bitcoin to burn my, CPU. **Obi:** Well, not to burn it, but just to heat my CPU. so you can charge a fee. And I think some will experiment with charging a DDoS fee, which is similar to Bitcoin. the fees in Bitcoin are a DDoS protection vector. So it's the same concept. # Fedi's Roadmap **Knut:** All right. So, what's on the roadmap? What's going on? How does the future look like? What will you be working on the next five years? And where do you see FedeMint going? **Obi:** that's actually, the most, fun phase. up until now, we had a hypothesis and we had some early feedback, but a lot of it was based on, A hypothesis and theory as to what we thought people needed and we felt that freedom technology had got to a stage where they were good enough to provide this combined experience. **Obi:** And that was a hypothesis. And we think we've got early validation, but we built that. Now it's life. And now it's the fun, but it's also the scary bit because we now actually see people using it and we test all our hypothesis. And this is the point where you have to be very detail oriented, very much listening to the users and listening to what they say **Obi:** we cannot ignore if there are. Parts of our hypothesis that are incorrect, we have to adjust to support that. So it's going to be a lot of listening and we've already got hundreds of requests for feedback. and then working to rectify, or deal with the questions or feedback they've given us or the suggestions they've given us. **Obi:** and we're going to continue to iterate and then we bring it back out to users and see what they think. And we keep in that loop. This is the market product fit loop until. The product that we produce, fits the requirements of the market. Now, again, I, I'm hoping that takes six months or less, just like I hoped it took six months or less **Obi:** for the initialization phase, but it might take less. It might take a bit more, but it's fun. and that's the next phase. After that, we then go into the growth phase. Once we know we've got something that's repeatable, that really. is at the quality level that users need for it to be used a daily part of their life. **Obi:** We'll then go into growth phase and that's where we'll really, you know, pull down, put our pedal to the metal and, and just repeat, repeat, repeat until. You know, billions of people are using this around the world, but that, that's phase three. And I'm, I'm very focused on this phase. You don't want to rush into phase three. **Obi:** We're not going to rush to grow the numbers, until we are very sure that we've got something that's really slick, really reliable, and where we're meeting a clear demonstrable demand consistently. And that process is called human centered design. So it's not focused on this is my app, this is what I want, and I'm going to keep trying to make you agree with what I want. **Obi:** this is what we've built. This is our first stab at it, but we're going to keep iterating until it serves your need properly. And that might require some, this is what makes this one very hard because it requires a very different mindset to the phase one. Phase one is like We can do everything and the impossible is possible phase two is really being pragmatic. **Obi:** Or very self critical and being very open to killing your darlings, as the saying goes, you know, and saying this is not working or, or there's some fundamental issue. I mean, I don't think this will be the case at this stage, but if the feedback was from our market that we need to make some fundamental changes that would mean that 80 percent of the code we built has to be thrown away and have to start again. **Obi:** Well, that's what we're being told. we've got far enough to think that's highly unlikely. cause most of the feedback, like some of the big pieces of feedback cause how can we make it easier to set up federations? So that's a really good sign because lots of people said there's only going to be a demand for like free federations and it's going to be very centralized. **Obi:** Well, a very large percentage. I don't want to give it. These are the very large percentage of all our queries so far have been, how can I set my own federation up? So even based on those queries, there's not going to be free. You know, I can put it that way. **Luke:** Super quick question on that, I guess, is it the Fetiman software? Is it on, for example, the note in a box, solutions, the umbrellas, start nines, et **Obi:** Well, that's part of the feedback that we're getting. For example, can we set it up? Can you integrate with Umbro? Can you integrate with Start9? Can you integrate with RastyBlitz? can you make it simpler to set up? So, I think, a lot of that's done by the FediMint team. **Obi:** Because remember, FediMint is an OpusSource project versus a different OpusSource project. At some point in the future, it will be two different open source projects. However, we are using them as the bedrock, because if you want to custody significant amounts of value We know that you want to go multisig. **Obi:** Multisig for significant amounts of value is the best standard, and also you want privacy, so then privacy and multisig, that's FedEvent, basically. but, on the FedE side, we can do a lot as well. So we can provide, even though it's open source software, we can take it and provide it. **Obi:** again, it will be open source, but tools to help you build it really easily or put efforts to integrate with people like Umbrell and Start9. we've already had an integration with an organization called Clover, which we've been working on, and you're going to see more on that. But from our point of view, that's a lot of where the work is. **Obi:** Also you want to connect this to the Lightning Network. And connected to the Lightning Network and maintaining a reliable connection is not easy. it can be complicated for people, especially managing liquidity. And now again, over time, I could get easier, but right now it's not easy. **Obi:** There are organizations like, Breeze and others who make that easy. and you just saw an announcement from Erik, where they've already started, showing connectivity and support for LDK, which is this cross, LSP standard. So, again, we at Fedi can provide tools for FediMint, or people who are using FediMint, whether it's with Fedi or someone else, that make it really easy. **Obi:** And again, our aim is one click, and you have a connection. You can set up your own lightning node that's set up in a relatively good way, so it'd be relatively reliable, but you don't have to manage it yourself. Or, you can connect to one of these LSP's and for a fee, they'll just handle all the light and management, but you're still in a trust minimized way. **Obi:** So there's, but given all the feedback we're getting, it's not, this is completely wrong. You need to go back to the drawing board, it's all, okay, I get it, but you need to go further. You need to integrate with more. You need to make it easier. so that's a good sign that we're on the right track. **Knut:** Yeah. So, what about this date when you go open source? is that public or, when you have to go open source, it might be then or **Obi:** in the, it's, it's, it's memorializing the business source license. In fact, we memorialized it. We actually have this memo memorializing when it happened. when we launched Freddy, we, we did this thing on the Bitcoin block. You can see it. We were established on a certain block. **Obi:** And we said Fedi is here. When we, quietly on May the 4th, we also put something that said Fedi colon and it was a hash. That hash is a hash of a memo. And the memo, which is on our, Fedi's got an open source, you can see the link and you can verify it. Showed that on May the 4th, the code became business source license. **Obi:** And by January the 3rd, 2026 or earlier, we must go, open source. And if we were to shut down or to stop development, we will instantly go open source. and so, so that, and we put it in block. I tried to find a core block. So it was block 8, 42069. It was actually was the block that was the core block as well. **Obi:** so yeah, it's, it's there. And, that's the date. We, we cannot go open source later than that. And we may very well go open source a lot earlier than that. # Wrapping Up **Luke:** Hey Obi, I think we could keep on grilling you on this and that little detail, but this has been really enlightening, fantastic to see how far this has come, even since our last conversation back in October, and yeah, just looking forward to everything you guys are doing, and I guess just as a last thing, people can now grab the Fedi app and Public federations are available to start to try **Obi:** federations and there are, and you can set up your own federation There's a lot, I don't like to talk too much about what's coming in future because we just work on everything in order of customer demands. So if customer demand comes in, that changes the order, but we're working really hard to make it, It's already easy for if you're quite technical, but we're going to make it easier and easier to set up a federation, so keep looking out because that's a very common request to set up a federation yourself, and we want to see what people do with it, create Fedi mods, create federations, use it, give us feedback, and we will continue to work on making an incredible, Open source interface portal to this freedom technology world. **Luke:** Absolutely fantastic. We'll need to keep on having these conversations regularly, get updates because always fantastic to hear about this and good luck moving forward and I think we'll be trying some FETI stuff in our futures here. Lots of cool things have come out of Nostriga and Baltic. Honey Badger by **Luke:** I'm exciting to see that. And anywhere else you want to direct our listeners and viewers. **Obi:** So for Fedi, that's probably the best place because everything, that's a jumping off ground for everything else. And that's Fedi, F E D I dot X, Y, Z. **Luke:** Fantastic. **Obi:** One of the cooler things that came out in Nostriga and Honeybadger was of course, yes, the inverse of clown world, our new book, and we want to give you one. if you're not given one during this weekend, you'll find it on bitcoininfinitystore. com. Thank you very much. **Luke:** and we need to sign it for you. Yeah, we'll do that offline. But Obi, thank you again. And this has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show. 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\\li0\\ri0\\sa260\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0\\afs56\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\fs56\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 BIS130 - Transcript \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s18\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sa360\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0\\afs28\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\fs28\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Welcome to the Bitcoin Infinity Show, brought to you by BitBox Stampseed, the Bitcoin Advisor and ShopInBit. Enjoy the conversation. \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s1\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sb120\\sa260\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\outlinelevel0\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0\\afs48\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\fs48\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Welcoming Obi Nwosu \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s18\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sa360\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0\\afs28\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\fs28\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf20\\insrsid13517917 Luke:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Obi, welcome for the first time to the Bitcoin Infinity Show. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 well, \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 We rebranded. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 what is time in infinity? No, no, it's the second time, great to have you back. yeah, we have, it's been a wild ride and the journey is just beginning. So yeah, thank you. \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s1\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sb120\\sa260\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\outlinelevel0\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0\\afs48\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\fs48\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 The Launch of Fedi \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s18\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sa360\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0\\afs28\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\fs28\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917\ \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 so Fedimin launched, two weeks ago. Is it the Fedi \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Fedi, launched? \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 launched? Yeah. These terms. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 no, no, Fedi Mint launched, effectively Fedi Mint launched nearly five years ago. FediMint is a very old technology, very, you know, the first, the first FediMint transaction, where someone used FediMint e cash over Lightning to buy a cup of coffee, whic h was after, you know, a year plus of development was on, I believe it was the 3rd of the 8th, 3rd of August, 2021. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And so we're trying to, like you have a Bitcoin Infinity Day, we're suggesting, that was actually Erik, my, the inventor of Fedi Mint. from Parinelli Police, just actually, and so I like to think of that as e cash coffee day. Cause actually it was like, you actually bought the cup of coffee with e cash. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 so yeah, but yeah, Fedi finally launched two weeks ago. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 All right. so I think, for those who haven't seen the previous episode with you, if they want to know more about you, we should probably go back to that episode, but I think you're going to have to do the TLDR on what Fedi is for our listeners. Like that 's a good start, I think. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 So yeah, and now we can be clear about what Fedi is. And so Fedi, is two things still. Even Fedi is two things. One is the company called Fedi and the other is this product called Fedi. So if we talk about the product that people have on their phone, Fed i is a community super app. And so it's an app that takes the best of freedom technology. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 it's got Bitcoin functionality in it, Lightning connectivity, obviously FediMint for handling community custody. but it's also got Nostr support and any other freedom technology that's out there that's mature and reliable. We've taken the time to integra te into one simple to use app. So it allows you to have chat. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 We use Matrix as this federated, decentralized, encrypted chat protocol. It has money with the combination of Lightning, Bitcoin, and Fediment and more. So it has a built in web browser inside it. And therefore you can access all of the Bitcoin ecosystem of apps from Bitrefill to Unleash. chat to BTCmaps and beyond. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 All in one place. So you don't have to have this smorgasbord of different apps and tabs open one app to use them all. And the app itself, we announced as well, is now source available and will eventually be open source as well. So we're trying to make th e best of it. portal into the freedom technology space. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 So that's Fedi. And then Fedi the company builds the Fedi app. And we also have something we call the FedEye Order, which is, this selection of incredible people, FedEye Knights, who are on the ground and they, you can think of them as like a Decentraliz ed genius bar. If you've got an iPhone, you have the genius bar that goes along with the phone. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 The reason why the iPhone is so amazing is not just the phone, but it's also the incredible support you can get. If you can go to an Apple store and you go to the genius bar, they can help you. we have that instead of it being in, you know, Fifth Avenue or Oxford street in London or so on. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 It's in, the capital of Togo or Uganda or. Guatemala, or so on. On the ground, they will locate communities, they will educate communities. and they will support communities on Bitcoin, on Lightning, on FediMent, on all of these different websites and se rvices that are out there to provide that sort of support that's needed for the communities that are outside of the existing Bitcoin space. \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s1\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sb120\\sa260\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\outlinelevel0\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0\\afs48\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\fs48\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 How Federations Work \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s18\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sa360\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0\\afs28\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\fs28\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Okay, great. so how does a federation work? \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 so the first thing you have to do, wherever you custody is where you transact and do and you live and so on, which is why. Banks try very much when you're young to get you to hold a bank account with them because they know that most people never leave an d then all other services are provided. So how do you actually custody? \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 For many people they've had two choices. Either they do everything themselves and that's the best if you can do it just like it's the best to be able to build and fix your own car or house but not everybody can do that but that is always the best because no one's going to love you. And put as much care in as yourself. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 The other extreme is to fully outsource it, fully give it to some private party, which is actually what ends up 95 percent plus people doing, and that's putting their money on a Coinbase or some other centralized service. and the same with communication. They would use some sort of centralized service. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 They would use a WhatsApp, an X. com, a Telegram, a WeChat or so on. They would use some centralized chat. And if you think about it. Our lives are communication and money and value. So both those things, most people outsource, some people take it in hou se. If I want to set up a federation, which is to do with the custody of the money, where FedeMint is this middle, middle house, I can find within my community, a number of trusted parties. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 We call them guardians. So let's say. You found us three plus, you know, your great t shirt, Greg Voss. The minimum we suggest is four for various Esoteric reasons From a cryptographic security point of view we suggest four, but you can have seven You ca n have you can keep growing you could have we've seen people have seen Federation stood up with as many as 40 people in them And it will get slower and slower if it gets beyond that, but, but technically you can. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 It'll be this, it'll create this huge multisig, i. e. multiple people have to sign before you do a transaction on chain. And so multisig starts to get expensive of a certain size. But let's say us three plus Greg. We would FedeMint software. we would dow nload the 30 minute software onto a machine that we have spare, and we would set up and run it. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 The setup process will, part of it will enter the information about the other three. And we make that very simple, it's a web interface, you point and click and you get a code and you share that code with the other parties, everybody shares the code of e ach other. Maybe you go into a group chat and paste each other's code. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Everybody copies each other's, enters it into our own FediMint and then they connect to each other and they form a federation. As long as you keep that box, running, connected to the internet, and connected to electricity, the federation, for each, all t he four, the federation are one. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 But because it's a federation, if one of them, for example, had a power cut, or lost their internet, or had to change their domain name, or something like that, The other three will be able to continue and operate. Yep, so you've now created this communi ty custody platform. Now, anyone with the FEDI app or any other app that supports the FEDIMINT protocol, Webimint, and we're hoping that many others will set up FEDIMINT wallets, like there are multiple Lightning wallets in future. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Any FDI min wallet compatible wallets like Fedie, can connect to your federation At the end of setting up the fed min server will show a QR code and the string that represents how to connect to your Federation. So you could take your Fed app, or the Muti ny wallet, or Web Mint, or any other, fed mint compatible wallet, and you'll scan that QR code. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And you've now connected to that federation and that federation becomes, you can now use it to custody. Now, what will happen is, if for example, someone wants to send money to you, you would, just as if you're using a Bitcoin wallet, let's say it's on c hain. you would say, I want to receive, enter the amount and it'll show a QR code. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Someone else who's using a normal Bitcoin wallet will scan that code and send over the Bitcoin main chain money to you. But what's actually happening is your Fediap is communicating with the Federation. Your Federation is creating a Bitcoin address for y ou to send to and sends it back to you for you to display. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Okay. And then a user, someone else who's using a completely different wallet will send money to that address. Actually goes to the federation and they, the four of us combined will process that and create e cash, which is like a token representation of the \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Bitcoin. And then the e cash will be sent to you. But the way it, the way it's sent is completely privacy preserving. So the guardians have no way of knowing who they are providing that service for, who's receiving the money. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 There's full privacy. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 All right, and neither does the sender, I assume, like the sender doesn't, that they sent Bitcoin to us and address. They have no idea who, so if there are, let's say we set this up and we're using it for our friends and extended family and in total, the re are 40 of us or 50 of us \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 When you send to that address, there's no way to know out of those 40 or 50 people who received it or who requested it. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 All right, so, a bit about the guardians and the multisig, that's obviously because you don't want to have a single point of attack for each, federation, right? \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 point of failure, \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 A single point of \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 the more likely thing is that someone's machine, if you had one machine, the most likely thing that will happen, almost guaranteed, at some point you'll have some sort of power cut or internet cut. Internet cut is probably the most likely you'll, you'll have a glitch on your internet for 30 minutes. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 If you do, Everyone using your federation won't be able to use your system for 30 minutes. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 but it's also an attack vector. Like if the, if the, if there's a lot of money in the federation and, so there's, there's an incentive to attack the guardians. Like, can you be completely sure that the guardians don't know each other's identities and stu ff like that? Like how, I know you think a lot about the attack vector. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 So I'm like, can you go into that a bit? \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 can't be completely sure of anything in life. So the answer to that is automatically no. Can you be completely sure of something? but, it depends on the Also, there's an assumption that you have, that the people don't know each other. Cause I think very often in, there's two types of scenarios. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 It could be that each party completely doesn't know each other, or the more common scenario will be that you're some community or some group of friends. And within you, you've decided. Of the people who are my friends and family and so on, these four peo ple are the ones who are consistently the most reliable, the most trusted and so on. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 They do know each other, and you know who they are, and it's because you know who they are that you're comfortable with them holding. they're the Uncle Jims of the family. they're known to be reliable. They're known to be people who care about their frie nds and family. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 that's very often actually what we're seeing is the more common scenario than the ones where people are completely, anonymous to each other. But as it matures, we may see the other scenario happen as well. \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s1\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sb120\\sa260\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\outlinelevel0\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0\\afs48\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\fs48\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 The Uncle Network \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s18\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sa360\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0\\afs28\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\fs28\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf20\\insrsid13517917 Luke:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 It's a literal uncle network. I know Uncle Rockstar started the uncle network here on infinity day. Yeah, you got the brother Luke, and so that's four, so we're \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 are you an uncle? \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 am an uncle officially now. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 an uncle as well, are like, but dubbed by Uncle Rockstar \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 I haven't been dubbed I, so \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 you are a good candidate. candidate, but I am biologically now, an \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 oh, congratulations, \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Yeah, \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s1\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sb120\\sa260\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\outlinelevel0\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0\\afs48\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\fs48\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 How Fedi Launched \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s18\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sa360\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0\\afs28\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\fs28\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf20\\insrsid13517917 Luke:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Okay, well, I think we are looking just to dig in more about Fedi Fedi Mint and, what does your launch actually mean? Because the app has been in beta for quite a while, right? what's happened, to make it that you can launch? \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Yeah, that's a very good question, because, we, the app from the, if you just focus on the app, from the previous version to the one we went live, there are only a few, changes. It was more about, did we have enough feedback from enough people on the gro und that we thought that the product was stable enough, reliable enough? \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 behind the scenes, we've done a lot of internal plus from trusted friends, external security audits of different elements as well. I don't like to publicize it because it's just something we do. We don't think it's something you should promote to saying, Hey, look at what we're doing. We just try to build the best that we can. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 and the really, big thing was to just say, a lot of people ask, is Fedi ready? And we wanted to get to a line where we thought it was good enough. And we got to that line. And then, we also wanted to have enough proof points in, the world. And again, we got to that line. So these things were separate things that were happening. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And finally, it was very clear to us that we wanted to make the software, Ultimately open source. And that was a big call because, you know, we raised 21 million and, normally you go two routes. You go, you raise a little bit and you stay open source and so on. Or you raise a lot and you stay closed source. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 We believe that, over time, it's going to be considered, over the coming years, it's going to consider that you should always go open source no matter what you're doing, but we're in a transition. Five years ago, raising this much and going open source w ould be considered crazy, in five years time, raising this much and not being open source would be considered crazy. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And we wanted to be, afforded in that. So. We actually went source available. It's called a business source license. So it means you go source available and you set a date where you must go open source or earlier. and we set those. So we cannot change it now. We cannot say we're going to actually change our mind. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Well, the only thing we can say is that we're going to go open source earlier. that's the only thing we could do. Or if we decide to shut down, it's automatically open source as well. That's the sort of dead man's switch as well. Or we decide we're no lo nger going to develop the software. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 we've added caveats like that, which are not optional, but actually add more restrictions. So no one's going to complain with us going open source earlier. that was agreed and put in place on May the 4th. So May the 4th we review of this year, 2024, just for posterity. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 we, got enough proof points from different markets, that we felt that we're onto something here. Does that mean that we've finished? No, there's a lot of work to do, but enough to say that the idea of taking all of the best of freedom technologies out th ere. And putting them into one place and one app that's easy to use is something that's compelling to people. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And also we had enough to see the federation model. of this sort of really simple to use and privacy preserving multi sig is also a powerful model. So the model was proven out. And then finally the software, we got to a point where we thought, it's, of c ourse, we've got years of more development, but it was good enough as well. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 I think that was the final piece. And we thought, okay, we're ready to go. And we then set a date a few weeks after that. But even when we were getting close to it, we started the process of shooting a video because we just wanted to show people are wond ering what were we doing for the last nearly two years and we wanted to show that as well. \\par\ \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf20\\insrsid13517917 Luke:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 what's the synopsis of the last two years? Like the big highlights? \\par\ \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 so, I always say there's three phases in the business. There's initialization, of a startup, initialization, market product fit, in our case, not product market fit, I can go into why. And then, growth. And so, this phase that was, the end was finally, w e crossed the line, on August the 6th, 2024, was the initialization phase. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And so, if you think about the analogy of, like you wanted to have A shop selling designer pet clothing, and you've decided you have this crazy idea and you have to first fund it, find the people to build it, and then find the place, set up the store, ma ke the clothes and, open. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 That's the initialization phase. And then once it's launched, you then. Start figuring out, okay, people come in, there's initial, interest, and then, you have this trickle of people coming in, you have to figure out what do they like, what do they not l ike, what do I have to adjust until it becomes this sort of regular viable business. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf20\\insrsid13517917 Luke:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 That's the market product fit phase. And then you start saying, okay, I've got something that's working fully and then I will repeat it, make more and more and more, Widgets? \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Doggy fashion, Excel stores, whatever you want to call it. the last two years was our initialization phase. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 we had this, amazing product with FediMint. we had this initial set of, crazy people with Erik, the inventor of FedEvent, Justin, who's, who was also incredible engineer, who was actually the one who suggested that we make a commercial enterprise. up unt il that, both myself and Erik just suggested it would be an open source project. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And then myself as well with my just, you know, only maybe six or seven months before we were finally finished selling. a Bitcoin exchange, the UK's longest running Bitcoin exchange. and so having that experience of building a company that was profitable and understanding what it meant to build something that custodies a large amount of money for people and provides them services is easy to use and all that sort of stuff. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 and everything around that customer service, everything around that. So, we were there, I had a visit to the Oslo Freedom Forum, and that was the catalyst. we did one talk at, Bitcoin Miami, and, Alex Gladstein saw that, he suggested I go to Oslo Freedom Forum. I went, my mind was blown and I also realized whenever you're thinking about a business, you have to always think about chicken and the egg and how do you find your initial market for eventually this product is applicable to everybody everywhere , but who's the first use case that has a demand so high that they're going to willing to go through the really buggy early versions and help you. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Stabilize it to the point where it's something that people can click a button and it works everywhere. I realized that the community of human rights defenders and later on also humanitarian organizations fit that, need. We really cared about that need an d we were concerned, we wanted to help, but we realized that this product could help in combination with the rest of the Bitcoin ecosystem. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 That's what's quite cool. FediMint is the thing that handles the custody, but you still need to buy things, sell things, find things, and so on, and that's where the Fedi app also comes into play, but without FediMint as the core to handle the custody, t he rest didn't make sense. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Then we started, it was, then you had this sort of scene from like the Magnificent Seven or so on where you're, you're finding your initial team members. So we found Renato Rodriguez, I chased her for like six months ago. She should have, you know, got a restraining order for six months trying to get her to join. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 just if you look at the initial team, it was just everybody, the whole team is amazing. But it was just trying to find these incredible people. they tended to just immediately understand the value proposition and the market we were trying to help and wer e already doing incredibly well in their own careers, but there was something missing for them. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And when they saw this, it was like this fulfilled There's some other need that they had beyond the monetary need. The potential was amazing, but the mission side of it was what helped us bring on this incredible team. So I believe in philosophy, people, process, product. The philosophy was amazing, who we're helping, the potential, it's helping people and in so doing we're helping Bitcoin, in so doing we're helping the world. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And that's a powerful philosophy and mission and that attracted this incredible group of people. And if you've got the philosophy and you've got an incredible group of people, they will put in the processes that will lead to the right product. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 It's like, let's say the video, for example. I said to Renata, I want a really powerful launch video and it should be like the best Apple keynote speech combined with a UNICEF or Save the Children commercial. That's it. That's the whole brief and that wh ole video. And somebody says, you need to go to Madeira. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 You need to say this. And I just woke up and I say what she says. But the whole elements of it, all of it was her and her team, Mary and marketing and everybody building that over the following X months. and I didn't actually see the video myself. Until less than a month before we launched it for the first time as a rough draft. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And it was just basically perfect. My comments were like, I actually didn't have any significant comments, but that was the same for most of the team and the design of the product. We had this incredible designer, Skylar. I would give a brief and so as, Erik's brief was, I just want to be proud of something that I should be proud of, and that was it, you know? \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And I was like, it just needs to be really simple. And that's the high level. And I might give comments on a little bit here or there, but in general, whenever he gave me it, I would say, well, he Skylarized it, like just Skylarize it. And he would just come up with something that was great. and I think that was the last two years. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 We had the team we raised. again, the choice of investors was really, really key. I was very, very sure, especially from my previous experiences, that I only wanted Bitcoin on the investors, especially for the first couple of rounds. And when I've someti mes do talks on how to set up a Bitcoin company, my first slide says don't do it, but instead sort of a Bitcoin business, not a Bitcoin startup. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And I explain the difference between the two. but one part is, if you do want to raise capital, be really careful about your choice of investors. The wrong investors will, well, and they don't mean to, but they will kill your business without meaning to, but the right investors will. So, we were really, really careful about our choice of investors and the initial team and then the initial team brought on the rest of the team after that. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And that was the last, that's the last two years we've set ourself up very well. I did, being a classic entrepreneur, think it'll take six months, took two years. So I, so my estimation on that was a little bit off, but the end result, I'm really excited about. And now, now we're, now we're off to the races. \\par Great news, everyone! Bitcoin, the inverse of clown world is out now. It's the successor to everything divided by 21 million. And it's based on the last two years of podcasts that we've done together. So if you like the show, you're going to love the book . Find the book on bitcoininfinitystore. com or on Amazon. \\par That's right. We have our own store now. BitcoinInfinityStore. com. You can find not just books, but merchandise based on everything divided by 21 million, check out Bitcoin, the inverse of Clown World today and buy some other stuff while you're there too . \\par This show is brought to you by Bit Box, our favorite hardware wallet. It's Swiss engineered and has all the most important security features to keep your Bitcoin safe while keeping a user experience that even your grandma can use. So visit Bit Box. Do Swi ss slash Freedom to learn more, or use Code Freedom at checkout for 5% off. \\par And remember, it's the Bit Box zero two Bitcoin only edition. Make sure to get that Bitcoin only firmware. \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s1\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sb120\\sa260\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\outlinelevel0\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0\\afs48\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\fs48\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 How does Fedi Make Money? \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s18\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sa360\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0\\afs28\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\fs28\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 How does the app make money? \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Yeah. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 For the company? \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 if you use the app, whenever you use the Freddie app. whenever a transaction happens, which would have occurred a fee. So it's a Bitcoin transaction, e cash or a lightning transaction. We add on an additional fee, 21, 21 basis points. So 0. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Oh, yeah, \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And so, and the good thing is because we can charge in sats and I believe actually even fractions of a sat, it's a progressive tax, which a fee. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 So what I mean by that is. If you're sending, let's say 100 through, then you would be charged on 100. 21, but if you're, worth of value, but if you're sending through 1, then you'll be charged 0. 21 cents. And if you're sending through 0. 10, you'll be charged 0. 20. 0 to 1 cents. So it'll always be a very small percentage of what you're sending. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Now, people might say in certain countries, don't they have mobile money and so on. But the problem is those mobile money systems have minimum fees. And it might be, 1%, which is not that bad, say. And it might be, even in some terms of scale, it could b e half a percent, but with a minimum fee of 20 cents. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 So if you're sending a hundred dollars, that's okay. But if you're sending, 1, that's 20%. And so if you have someone who has a monthly salary of. 10 in some of these markets, that 0. 20 fee starts becoming quite a significant per transaction hit. So the refore it becomes unaffordable for you to use mobile money. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 So even though it's prolific above a certain wealth level, and so that leaves many people out, in the rain. But because this is progressive, if you're selling 10 cents, the, fee will actually round to zero. I mean it will be a fee, but you'll see it in s ats, but if you were showing, trying to show it in local currency, it would basically be, it'll say about zero and then you click and you realize it's this small amount of sats. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 so, yeah. the big thing that I'm thinking of if I'm like. Playing this out in my head with where this could be in 10 years, like you could run entire virtual nations on a federation, right? If you have the money and the communication and whatever other u seful apps, \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 I think the big thing I think is, if you look at the internet, there are large organizations where, people use and they're highly centralized. You have a few people who may be wealthy enough to have their own direct connection to the internet, but the ma jority of people are connected on the internet. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 I don't know at this stage, millions of intranets, like household intranets effectively, company intranets and school intranets and so on, where it's one connection to the internet shared by multiple people. That's actually the majority of people. And it 's that middle ground between these huge mega organizations that people are connected to one mainframe. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 With millions of users, I think there are very few of them now, but that was the denominant way at the beginning. It was these huge, centralized ways of connecting AOL, CompuServe, and so on. Now, they're actually relatively rare, but that was at the beg inning. All of the internet was that. A few centralized parties, and I would liken them, conceptually in value terms, in value custody terms versus information custody terms, to, a coin basis. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And also there were a lot of hobbyists who had their own direct ISDN connection to the internet. but now most people connect through these intranets where they get one router, one connection, and they share with everybody in their household. That would b e a criminal of the Uncle Jim federations or in their school or in their football club or in their office. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 That's probably 95 percent of people and I think that this approach of federated model from the size from. Five or six people up to five or six hundred thousand, that range can cover 80, 90 percent of usage. \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s1\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sb120\\sa260\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\outlinelevel0\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0\\afs48\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\fs48\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 How to Use Fedi(Mint) \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s18\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sa360\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0\\afs28\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\fs28\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf20\\insrsid13517917 Luke:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Can we go back to the basics of how feint works in the perspective of someone actually using this thing? So, you explained to us last time how it works, but just for my own sanity, check that I got it. if you are sending e cash within the federation, tha t is just. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf20\\insrsid13517917 Luke:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Direct between two users. There's not even a record outside of that. No one knows those transactions are even happening. Is that essentially correct? \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Yeah. So the federation helps you mint technically, because actually the user creates their own e cash, they create their own e cash, but it's unstamped and then they give it to the federation and they stick in an envelope. And they give it to the federa tion with some carbon copy paper on the inside the envelope as well. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 the federation collectively signs. So let's say all four people go stamp, stamp, stamp. And that makes it valid. then they give back the envelope to the user. The user then opens the envelope with the cache that they created, just some random piece of da ta. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And they now have this Ucash, but the Ucash they've created now has got the four stamps on it, say, for the four of us. And so anyone else in that federation, any other, person who's also connected to the federation. They can just literally, directly giv e them this, random set of data. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Let's say it's a picture of a fashionable dog and they can just give it to someone else. and the person will receive it and they don't really care what the data says. They just look, are the four stamps on it? Yes. Then it means it was stamped by the Fed eration, which means it's backed by a certain amount of information. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Actual Bitcoin. Yeah. So take the whole, the full path. Someone deposits some Bitcoin in return. They also, along with the Bitcoin, send them an envelope, give them an envelope with this random piece of data in it to the Federation and the Federation rec eives the Bitcoin. Okay. I've received the Bitcoin envelope. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Okay. I've received the Bitcoin. I will stamp. I received one, let's say. 10, 000 Satoshis. So I'm going to take my 10, 000 Satoshi stamp and stamp this envelope with 10, 000 Satoshis, pass it around to the other four, they all stamp the 10, 000 Satoshi stamp. And then give that back to the user. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 User opens the envelope and says, I've got, okay, I've got an e cash note with, with, that's been proven that the, that it's been validated by the guardians. So as long as we all trust the guardians are holding that and that they will honor this and rede em. That's it. So now I can pass it to anyone in the Federation. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 They receive it. They look at this picture of the cute dog, but what they're really looking at is, is it got the four stamps on it and it's 10, 000. So that means I've now received 10, 000 token. They can now at some point in the future, Often they do it immediately if they've gone into connection, but they don't have to. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 They can give it back to the Federation. Federation will receive it and each one will check their own signature of the guardians. Okay, it's properly signed. Therefore, I'm willing to, and they might give them a Bitcoin address to send the money on chain to. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 So they will receive it, it looks good, they will then, record that this, e cash note has been spent. But they don't know, of all the e cash they received, which one it was, because each one they received in the first place was in an envelope. So was it the first one they received, or the middle one they received? \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 They have no idea. It could have been received yesterday or a month ago. No way. All they know is, I must have stamped it, so it was one of the ones I stamped. And then they will look at the address the person's asking to send the Bitcoin to, and they wi ll take some of the Bitcoin that they're holding in the multi sig that we're holding between the four of us and send it to that address. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 So that's called Redeem versus Mint. Now, the user experience from a user, we can get onto Lightning, that's another level of complexity, but it's simple just for Bitcoin and eCash for now. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Someone sends me Bitcoin or I send it to myself from an outside wallet and I receive e cash. And then someone else in the, in the federation wants to, once I want to pay them some e cash, they will give me, they will give me a QR code to, to scan to pay and I will scan. And literally the e cash that's on my phone gets sent to them directly. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 From me to them, one to one, that person when they receive it could keep it on their phone or they could say, you know what, I want to send that back to the federation and they can send it back to the federation and then the federation can destroy that, issue them new, fresh e cash in different denominations, maybe not 10, 000, but 10, 1, 000, you know, just like with notes, you could go and get change. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Yeah, because if someone transacts, if you're saying it gets sent from one computer, phone being a computer, whatever, one device to another, well, that original device would still \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Yes, \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf20\\insrsid13517917 Luke:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 copy of the thing on, right. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 So they will still have a copy. Now you are in the same, this is where the community aspect works, you are in the same community, If you're in the same community, and the person, it's a merchant and you receive, and your phone will remember when you rece ived what e cash, yeah? \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Even though it's private, you do know this e cash was received at this time and this time for, and so, especially when you integrate with points of sale, it will say, well, you received this e cash for this purchase. You'll know that. so then if you go t o redeem it, at the end of the day, and some of it doesn't match, you will know as the merchant, which e cash was involved in that. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 You'll say, well, the e cash involved in this transaction. And that transaction was with John. So you've got proof of work. it's the same as if you have a merchant and you receive cash and then you finally got the end of the day to a bank. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And some of the notes are counterfeit. Now, you don't find high levels of counterfeit notes in a community where people know each other. It's normally in these widespread communities. But in those scenarios, what most people will do and how the default w ay the app works is the moment you receive it, it immediately goes off and redeems it and then issues itself back new, new change. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Yeah, that seems like a good default implementation. but if you have no internet connectivity, you can still use it and still receive. even if you can't send over the internet, you can create a QR code, which contains the e cash in the QR code, and the p erson can literally scan it and receive through the screen. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Because as long as it's the QR code, the e cash note is just some text. So a QR code can represent that text and you can scan it, even if you have no data. So for example, it could be you're in an area where you have no data, rural, Latin America or so o n. But it could also be something more innocuous. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 You could just be in a big sort of, But the thing is is that you might be at a Glastonbury like concert and there are a thousand phones and there's no data. Or you're in an indoor conference place underground and there's no data. But you can still take p ayments or the merchant has internet because they're the ones who really need it. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 But the buyer doesn't and so in which case the merchant has internet because they're connected wired in because they're fixed, but the buyer doesn't need to have internet to pay and the merchant will just take a risk just like in most merchants in high s treets they accept a certain amount of breakage and a certain amount of transactions are gonna be charged back by, credit card companies and so on. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 I used to be a CTO for a major pan-European, online auction company. At the time I was competing with, eBay and so on. we were in a headliner, 300 hundred people working for me in technology. It was a very big technology offering. And we were doing milli ons of transactions a week. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 It was very high volume. And in those e commerce sites, you just accept a certain amount of breakage, a certain amount of returns, and a certain amount of chargebacks, even if you do nothing wrong and you just factor it into your costs. For the benefit o f the simplicity of the experience. \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s1\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sb120\\sa260\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\outlinelevel0\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0\\afs48\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\fs48\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Fedi and Nostr \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s18\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sa360\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0\\afs28\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\fs28\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 you mentioned Nostr before, like, what's the marriage between Fedi and Nostr? Well, I would say right now, we are, because I think. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 we're beyond dating. We're engaged. But we want to really take the two footed tackle of no return, to use a football euphemism. a web of trust thing, right? \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Yeah, I think, whenever, from the first point I saw Nostr, a lot of people thought it was just social media and so on. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 I think social media is Trojan horse is the wrong word, but it's the, initial vector by which it infiltrates communities. But what you're actually doing is building a simple, trust system and a simple discovery system. It's a form of decentralized search and it's a form decentralized identity. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Cause you, to search, you have to identify things to be able to search. So they're sort of two sides of the same coin. now the first thing you're using it for is identifying people who want to speak publicly and share their thoughts and so on and so fort h and follow them and give feedback and like. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 But it always seemed to me to, way more powerful than that. And I think now people, generally understand it that way. And so, What we've already done, in Fedi, and a lot of developers really like the way it works, if you sign up to Fedi, or if you downlo ad the Fedi app and start using it, you, first of all, you don't need to give your email, you don't need to give your phone number because it's not required, but, we do ask you to come up with some sort of Username for yourself. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 That doesn't even have to be unique, by the way. We will add a unique element at the end, from it. But what we do is, whenever you create that label, which you can change the name, but we create, an NSEC, which is a Nostr, identity effectively. A unique identity and we automatically create that for you. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 So again, for our users, we don't want to start educating them on the history of Austrian economics and Bitcoin and inflation at the beginning or a Nostr, et cetera, and how it works and relays. And we just want them to start using it. then subtly over t ime we expose certain features of it. So people become curious and then eventually. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 You want to learn how this thing that's delivering value works, but we've put proof of work first, proof of talk second. So we educate through letting people see the benefits. And then there might be some people might say, well, how does this car thing w ork? Or how does this fridge thing work? But I don't need to know how refrigerant works to be able to use a fridge or how microwaves work to use a microwave. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 When they want to know how all this stuff works, but we benefit first. So, and so and that's how it works with Nostr We immediately give you an NSEC. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And so because we've got that if you go and use unleash. chat, for example within the app It will go and you click login and there's one option login by Nostr You click that and it'll just within the app pop up something saying Nostr Do you want to log i n with Nostr? And you click yes, and you're logged in and it just works and then you, and then also now you're logged in and then you can, and then you click, deposit money and instead of having to go to a different app, copy and paste the QR codes, it just, it pops up and says, do you, this, this, what the app's asking you to deposit this amount of money? \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Do you want to go ahead? Yes. And then it's e cash. Is, is converted into lightning and then that you pay by lightning. But from your point of view, there's a circling key for three or four seconds. You have now credited your account. Do you want to with draw the money back account? You click withdraw the amount. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Three or four seconds, it's been withdrawn to your account and, and it's all within the same app. so, but that only works because now if you, close the app or delete the mods, because you can delete these mods or these additional pieces of functionality, they're basically webpages, but the icon for them, and they have an app like experience, but they're actually just webpages. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 and then you go away and then you delete the app from your service. Like six months later, you come back, you, you, you enter your 12 words, you're, you're re log on. And then if you scan to join a federation again, it will recognize that you were a memb er of the federation before, and it will reconstitute and recreate all your e cash and put it back on your phone. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And then if you click on, Unleash your chat or Stacker News or anyone that supports logging by Nostr. Your login with the same details and so on. So you basically, and we want to make that even more seamless. So from 12 words, your entire life can you th ink about moving from one mobile phone to another, where you have to move all your apps, your banking apps, your chat apps. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And now you could do that with just go and also try moving from an iPhone to an Android phone, Android to an iPhone. It's a nightmare. Here you could just download the Fedi app on your iPhone. this is some far point in the future. You don't have just cha t, but you also have voice. You have video, all of that running from encrypted chat. \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s1\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sb120\\sa260\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\outlinelevel0\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0\\afs48\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\fs48\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 12 Magic Words \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s18\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sa360\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0\\afs28\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\fs28\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 you have access to money from, custody and payments. You have access to all these apps and then you back up 12 words. And there's something we call social backup, which is mind blowing, but, that's in beta. But let's just say backup 12 words, and then yo u delete that app, go to a different phone, could be an Android or an iPhone, and you just enter 12 words, and your entire thing comes back. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Not partially back, but it all will come back. based on just those 12 words and that's only made possible because of Nostr and we want it over time. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 mean, when you think about it, it's insane. It's already insane with bitcoins, with the 12 magic words, because like every time I pass a security check at an airport, I think that go ahead, have my 200 milliliters of toothpaste. I'll, I have my 12 magic words, like it's the ultimate fuck you to, to anyone trying to meddle with your business, right? \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 that's the dream. I mean, we're not fully there, but it's, I would say it's like, we're like 90 percent there, but to extend beyond just your Bitcoin, Nostr is the protocol that allows us to do that because it's notes and other stuff and the other stuff can be, an encrypted version of the settings and so on that you have that we can store and be willing to pay for. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And then when you recover, you have your bitcoin, but then you can go off and send a request to say here, I'm willing to recover this file. Here's some zaps for the file and you get the file back and that additional file then contains the information. Ok ay, these are the federations you are a member of, you rejoin them. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 These are the mods that you had, they're reset up. These are the settings you had, they're reset up. And then you log on them automatically using Nostr as well, the NSEC and Nostr login. from your point of view as the user, 12 words, it's back. I mean, y ou might have to drink a cup of coffee while it's happening, but 5, 10, 20 minutes later, it's back. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 it's amazing, and it's an inheritance plan. Like, you can live forever by just letting your descendants, giving them the 12 words when you're on your deathbed. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 backup also becomes really powerful, because social backup means that, cause the 12 words is still another thing to secure. And it's sort of one of these turtles all the way down type scenarios. Okay. We've got all this incredible security Fort Knox like , but behind them, but I walk around the back of the Fort Knox is these 12 words that's stored. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 you also give one to your cousin and you say, look after this as a backup. And your cousin stores it on a fridge magnet. You know, you don't know, or you don't know your, your, your security is the lowest common denominator. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 For your 12 words. And \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 is never stronger than the weakest \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 then the weakest link. And so with social backup, which is definitely an early beta. what we can do is use the power of the federation where we can take your 12 words, encrypt them and then split it up between the four guardians in this case, or seven gu ardians or 40 guardians or whatever. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 For larger federations, and they all hold a piece of your encrypted piece of your, of \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 is important here. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Yeah. \\par Knut, what are you doing over there? I'm stamping my seed. Everyone tells me I should, that it's good for bitcoin security and whatnot, and that I should go balls deep into bitcoin security, so I'm stamping. You don't do it like that, Knut. You don't stam p that seed. You stamp your seed phrase. What? Your seed phrase. \\par Oh, so that's what these things are for. oh, I get it now. That's exactly right, Knut. And you can get everything you need to stamp your seed phrase at stampseed. com. And be sure to check out our limited edition Everything Divided by 21 Million Titanium Seed Plate. \\par And use code INFINITY at checkout for 15 percent off. That's fantastic! And it hurts way less! \\par\ \\par\ \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s1\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sb120\\sa260\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\outlinelevel0\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0\\afs48\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\fs48\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Redundancy in Fedi \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s18\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sa360\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0\\afs28\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\fs28\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf20\\insrsid13517917 Luke:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 So this gets me back to what happens when one of the guardians drops off, and if it's like in a permanent way, if that one guardian is holding a piece of everyone else's 12 words, does everyone \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Yeah. But it uses a prot, this is crypto, where cryptography comes in. So it's not like. We've taken your 12 words and split it up free between four guardians. Instead, you encrypt it using a scheme that allows each one of the four of us to have a crypto graphic piece. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 But as long as any three of us combine our piece together, we can recombine. It is, it's called, SHAIR Secret Sharing Scheme, but it's a way of cryptographically achieving that. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf20\\insrsid13517917 Luke:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Excellent, I think you mentioned last time as well that if a guardian does go down, essentially you can replace that guardian, can you take us through that, adding or replacing a guardian if that ever were to need to happen? \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 replacing a garden is, probably one of the most complex things. And so you wouldn't necessarily replace a guardian, but what you would do is, some, if someone were to go down, there's two different things. The machine. Or the guardian, the actual person. So if the machine goes down, you can set up a new machine and you can recover the status of that. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 You can, you can download the 30 minute software on that new machine. So that's the actual server that's running. And that will then connect to the rest of the federation and, and carry on. So as long as the guardian has a backup of their keys, they can recover that one machine and, and catch up and it'll automatically catch up. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Just like if you turn off a Bitcoin node and turn it on, it will reconnect to the Bitcoin network and catch up. It's a similar concept. so that's if a machine went down, if a machine was temporarily disconnected from the internet or, lost power, it would just restart and reconnect and you will have zero downtime as a user, as long as it's still running and active. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And this will all be, you'll notice that the performance will still be the same, but if you went into settings for that federation, you'll see that three of the four are running, so one is not running, but that won't affect your usage. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Is the N of M like a ratio, or is it always N 1, for example? It's a ratio. the number of guardians that, you need to have is dependent on how much redundancy. So if you want to be able to handle one guardian going down, then you'll need to have, one tim es by three plus one. So that's four. So that's why you need three or four. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 if you want to handle two going down, then you need two times by three plus one, which is seven. So it's five of seven. 7 of 10, 9 of 13, and so on and so forth. You can have more than that, but the time that you get additional redundancy is every 3, but you can have, for example, 4 of 5, if you wanted to. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Anyway, so, yeah, in the event that someone goes down, that the machine goes down, you can recover. recently there was an issue where one machine, where two federations, had an issue with the domain name for one of those servers. And so if the domain nam e for someone is no longer available, you can now, with the update that came out a couple of weeks after that, you can modify, the domain name \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 for a Guardian 30 minute server, and it would communicate that securely with the other, Federation servers and then reconnect and, continue to operate. But it's important to, even in that scenario where the Federa Guardian, the domain name server went do wn, the Federation itself, Continue to operate because there was still at least free running. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 So there was no downtime for the user. Whereas if, if we hadn't been federated, then for the one week or so where that was down, the users would have had no access at all, which would be the case where you're connecting to a centralized or a single serve r, offering. now, if one of the guardians, for some reason, the actual people who are running the Fedemyst server, for some reason, you no longer trusted them, they'd been helpful all their life and all of a sudden they decided, or they've been turned b y some, malevolent nefarious actor. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Then you, if you could in theory pass to someone else, but in practice, you know, how do I know that the other person isn't still going to continue to operate it and so on and so forth. So what you actually want to do is set up a different federation and transfer people, the other three guardians and inform people with a different set of four people. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 So those three, plus someone else. And just tell people to transfer their balances across. But transferring balances across is as easy as doing a lightning transaction from one server to another. You can, you know, within the FEDI app, be a member of mul tiple federations at the same time. I mean, right now, I mean, I'm a bit of a power user, but I'm a member of, over a dozen different federations from around the world. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 I mean, well over a dozen, I think, yeah. and as we've, I'm sure there's people in the team with way more than that. but obviously I can't advertise the names because many of them are private federations. So, but there's a few public ones, but there's wa y more private ones. \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s1\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sb120\\sa260\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\outlinelevel0\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0\\afs48\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\fs48\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Interoperability \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s18\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sa360\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0\\afs28\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\fs28\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf20\\insrsid13517917 Luke:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 So is the e cash, if you're in multiple federations, is it interoperable there, or it's like a more like a, it's a lightning transaction between those two federations, but it's e cash that lives \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 You got it. It's, E cash lives within its federation, but the interoperability layer for most people is not on chain. It's for the vast majority of people, it's Lightning, so, but the user experience of sending e cash from one person to another in the sa me federation, sending e cash from one person to someone else receiving Lightning. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 on a different wallet that's got nothing to do with Ferdie Mint. And finally sending e cash from one person in one federation. To someone else in another federation over the Lightning Network in between is exactly the same. From your point of view, QR co de scan and the system will combination of the Fedi app and or whatever Fedi Mint compatible app you're using and Fedi Mint servers will make the experience \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 I just need to send the person the cash. In this case I can send e cash out over Lightning and that's my job is done. And then the other side would be a Lightning wallet and it will receive. And in this case, I will send e cash over Lightning to another federation, but I don't even know if it's another federation, it's just a Lightning address. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And then the other federation, receives the transaction and the other 30 minute server receives e cash on the other side. But from a user's point of view, this is the thing that also took the two years to make the experience the same. You just don't have to worry about which one is doing. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 The fees will be slightly different. One won't have a Lightning component to the fee, e cash to e cash, but, the other two will because it will be like, in both cases, it will be e cash to Lightning, from your point of view. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf20\\insrsid13517917 Luke:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 So is there a fee to send e cash to someone else in the same federation? No, I guess. Right. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 It depends on the federation. the federation, could choose not to charge a fee and many in these times choose not to because they're doing it for friends and family and so on and the fees are minimal. the Ferryman protocol does support, what we call a DD oS fee. So basically you're spending effort time \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 to sign these notes, the issuing is done by the user, but the stamping takes time. you're signing something cryptographically, that's effort. and you're also doing it in a federated manner, so you're coordinating and then you're all collectively signing. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 So, to avoid DDoS, you can turn on a fee and, by our calculations, it doesn't need to be very large, one sat per note that issued is enough to prevent, because if someone really tried to DDoS you at scale, they could, but on normal sort of consumer lapto ps or hardware, they'll have to spend, hundreds of thousands a month at that sort of, one sat per note, and in which case you'll say, fine, you're giving me hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of Bitcoin to burn my, CPU. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Well, not to burn it, but just to heat my CPU. so you can charge a fee. And I think some will experiment with charging a DDoS fee, which is similar to Bitcoin. the fees in Bitcoin are a DDoS protection vector. So it's the same concept. \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s1\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sb120\\sa260\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\outlinelevel0\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0\\afs48\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\fs48\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Fedi's Roadmap \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s18\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sa360\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0\\afs28\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\fs28\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 All right. So, what's on the roadmap? What's going on? How does the future look like? What will you be working on the next five years? And where do you see FedeMint going? \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 that's actually, the most, fun phase. up until now, we had a hypothesis and we had some early feedback, but a lot of it was based on, A hypothesis and theory as to what we thought people needed and we felt that freedom technology had got to a stage where they were good enough to provide this combined experience. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And that was a hypothesis. And we think we've got early validation, but we built that. Now it's life. And now it's the fun, but it's also the scary bit because we now actually see people using it and we test all our hypothesis. And this is the point wher e you have to be very detail oriented, very much listening to the users and listening to what they say \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 we cannot ignore if there are. Parts of our hypothesis that are incorrect, we have to adjust to support that. So it's going to be a lot of listening and we've already got hundreds of requests for feedback. and then working to rectify, or deal with the qu estions or feedback they've given us or the suggestions they've given us. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 and we're going to continue to iterate and then we bring it back out to users and see what they think. And we keep in that loop. This is the market product fit loop until. The product that we produce, fits the requirements of the market. Now, again, I, I 'm hoping that takes six months or less, just like I hoped it took six months or less \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 for the initialization phase, but it might take less. It might take a bit more, but it's fun. and that's the next phase. After that, we then go into the growth phase. Once we know we've got something that's repeatable, that really. is at the quality leve l that users need for it to be used a daily part of their life. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 We'll then go into growth phase and that's where we'll really, you know, pull down, put our pedal to the metal and, and just repeat, repeat, repeat until. You know, billions of people are using this around the world, but that, that's phase three. And I'm , I'm very focused on this phase. You don't want to rush into phase three. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 We're not going to rush to grow the numbers, until we are very sure that we've got something that's really slick, really reliable, and where we're meeting a clear demonstrable demand consistently. And that process is called human centered design. So it's not focused on this is my app, this is what I want, and I'm going to keep trying to make you agree with what I want. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 this is what we've built. This is our first stab at it, but we're going to keep iterating until it serves your need properly. And that might require some, this is what makes this one very hard because it requires a very different mindset to the phase one . Phase one is like We can do everything and the impossible is possible phase two is really being pragmatic. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Or very self critical and being very open to killing your darlings, as the saying goes, you know, and saying this is not working or, or there's some fundamental issue. I mean, I don't think this will be the case at this stage, but if the feedback was fro m our market that we need to make some fundamental changes that would mean that 80 percent of the code we built has to be thrown away and have to start again. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Well, that's what we're being told. we've got far enough to think that's highly unlikely. cause most of the feedback, like some of the big pieces of feedback cause how can we make it easier to set up federations? So that's a really good sign because lots of people said there's only going to be a demand for like free federations and it's going to be very centralized. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Well, a very large percentage. I don't want to give it. These are the very large percentage of all our queries so far have been, how can I set my own federation up? So even based on those queries, there's not going to be free. You know, I can put it that way. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf20\\insrsid13517917 Luke:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Super quick question on that, I guess, is it the Fetiman software? Is it on, for example, the note in a box, solutions, the umbrellas, start nines, et \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Well, that's part of the feedback that we're getting. For example, can we set it up? Can you integrate with Umbro? Can you integrate with Start9? Can you integrate with RastyBlitz? can you make it simpler to set up? So, I think, a lot of that's done by t he FediMint team. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Because remember, FediMint is an OpusSource project versus a different OpusSource project. At some point in the future, it will be two different open source projects. However, we are using them as the bedrock, because if you want to custody significant a mounts of value We know that you want to go multisig. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Multisig for significant amounts of value is the best standard, and also you want privacy, so then privacy and multisig, that's FedEvent, basically. but, on the FedE side, we can do a lot as well. So we can provide, even though it's open source software, we can take it and provide it. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 again, it will be open source, but tools to help you build it really easily or put efforts to integrate with people like Umbrell and Start9. we've already had an integration with an organization called Clover, which we've been working on, and you're goin g to see more on that. But from our point of view, that's a lot of where the work is. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Also you want to connect this to the Lightning Network. And connected to the Lightning Network and maintaining a reliable connection is not easy. it can be complicated for people, especially managing liquidity. And now again, over time, I could get easie r, but right now it's not easy. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 There are organizations like, Breeze and others who make that easy. and you just saw an announcement from Erik, where they've already started, showing connectivity and support for LDK, which is this cross, LSP standard. So, again, we at Fedi can provide tools for FediMint, or people who are using FediMint, whether it's with Fedi or someone else, that make it really easy. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And again, our aim is one click, and you have a connection. You can set up your own lightning node that's set up in a relatively good way, so it'd be relatively reliable, but you don't have to manage it yourself. Or, you can connect to one of these LSP's and for a fee, they'll just handle all the light and management, but you're still in a trust minimized way. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 So there's, but given all the feedback we're getting, it's not, this is completely wrong. You need to go back to the drawing board, it's all, okay, I get it, but you need to go further. You need to integrate with more. You need to make it easier. so that 's a good sign that we're on the right track. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf19\\insrsid13517917 Knut:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Yeah. So, what about this date when you go open source? is that public or, when you have to go open source, it might be then or \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 in the, it's, it's, it's memorializing the business source license. In fact, we memorialized it. We actually have this memo memorializing when it happened. when we launched Freddy, we, we did this thing on the Bitcoin block. You can see it. We were estab lished on a certain block. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And we said Fedi is here. When we, quietly on May the 4th, we also put something that said Fedi colon and it was a hash. That hash is a hash of a memo. And the memo, which is on our, Fedi's got an open source, you can see the link and you can verify it. Showed that on May the 4th, the code became business source license. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 And by January the 3rd, 2026 or earlier, we must go, open source. And if we were to shut down or to stop development, we will instantly go open source. and so, so that, and we put it in block. I tried to find a core block. So it was block 8, 42069. It wa s actually was the block that was the core block as well. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 so yeah, it's, it's there. And, that's the date. We, we cannot go open source later than that. And we may very well go open source a lot earlier than that. \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s1\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sb120\\sa260\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\outlinelevel0\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0\\afs48\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\fs48\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Wrapping Up \\par }\\pard\\plain \\ltrpar\\s18\\ql \\li0\\ri0\\sa360\\widctlpar\\wrapdefault\\aspalpha\\aspnum\\faauto\\adjustright\\rin0\\lin0\\itap0\\pararsid13517917 \\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0\\afs28\\alang1025 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\fs28\\lang1033\\langfe1033\\cgrid\\langnp1033\\langfenp1033 {\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf20\\insrsid13517917 Luke:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Hey Obi, I think we could keep on grilling you on this and that little detail, but this has been really enlightening, fantastic to see how far this has come, even since our last conversation back in October, and yeah, just looking forward to everything y ou guys are doing, and I guess just as a last thing, people can now grab the Fedi app and Public federations are available to start to try \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 federations and there are, and you can set up your own federation There's a lot, I don't like to talk too much about what's coming in future because we just work on everything in order of customer demands. So if customer demand comes in, that changes the order, but we're working really hard to make it, It's already easy for if you're quite technical, but we're going to make it easier and easier to set up a federation, so keep looking out because that's a very common request to set up a federation yours elf, and we want to see what people do with it, create Fedi mods, create federations, use it, give us feedback, and we will continue to work on making an incredible, Open source interface portal to this freedom technology world. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf20\\insrsid13517917 Luke:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Absolutely fantastic. We'll need to keep on having these conversations regularly, get updates because always fantastic to hear about this and good luck moving forward and I think we'll be trying some FETI stuff in our futures here. Lots of cool things ha ve come out of Nostriga and Baltic. Honey Badger by \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf20\\insrsid13517917 Luke:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 I'm exciting to see that. And anywhere else you want to direct our listeners and viewers. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 So for Fedi, that's probably the best place because everything, that's a jumping off ground for everything else. And that's Fedi, F E D I dot X, Y, Z. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf20\\insrsid13517917 Luke:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 Fantastic. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf21\\insrsid13517917 Obi:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 One of the cooler things that came out in Nostriga and Honeybadger was of course, yes, the inverse of clown world, our new book, and we want to give you one. if you're not given one during this weekend, you'll find it on bitcoininfinitystore. com. Thank you very much. \\par }{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\ab\\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\b\\cf20\\insrsid13517917 Luke:}{\\rtlch\\fcs1 \\af0 \\ltrch\\fcs0 \\insrsid13517917 and we need to sign it for you. Yeah, we'll do that offline. But Obi, thank you again. And this has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show. 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e529fd1edb01feffffff00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000ffffffffffffffffffffffff00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000ffffffffffffffffffffffff0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000ffffffffffffffffffffffff000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000105000000000000}}BIS130 - Transcript Knut: Welcome to the Bitcoin Infinity Show, brought to you by BitBox Stampseed, the Bitcoin Advisor and ShopInBit. Enjoy the conversation. Welcoming Obi Nwosu Luke: Obi, welcome for the first time to the Bitcoin Infinity Show. Obi: well, Knut: We rebranded. Obi: what is time in infinity? No, no, it's the second time, great to have you back. yeah, we have, it's been a wild ride and the journey is just beginning. So yeah, thank you. The Launch of Fedi Knut: so Fedimin launched, two weeks ago. Is it the Fedi Obi: Fedi, launched? Knut: launched? Yeah. These terms. Obi: no, no, Fedi Mint launched, effectively Fedi Mint launched nearly five years ago. FediMint is a very old technology, very, you know, the first, the first FediMint transaction, where someone used FediMint e cash over Lightning to buy a cup of coffee, which was after, you know, a year plus of development was on, I believe it was the 3rd of the 8th, 3rd of August, 2021. Obi: And so we're trying to, like you have a Bitcoin Infinity Day, we're suggesting, that was actually Erik, my, the inventor of Fedi Mint. from Parinelli Police, just actually, and so I like to think of that as e cash coffee day. Cause actually it was like, you actually bought the cup of coffee with e cash. Obi: so yeah, but yeah, Fedi finally launched two weeks ago. Knut: All right. so I think, for those who haven't seen the previous episode with you, if they want to know more about you, we should probably go back to that episode, but I think you're going to have to do the TLDR on what Fedi is for our listeners. Like that's a good start, I think. Obi: So yeah, and now we can be clear about what Fedi is. And so Fedi, is two things still. Even Fedi is two things. One is the company called Fedi and the other is this product called Fedi. So if we talk about the product that people have on their phone, Fedi is a community super app. And so it's an app that takes the best of freedom technology. Obi: it's got Bitcoin functionality in it, Lightning connectivity, obviously FediMint for handling community custody. but it's also got Nostr support and any other freedom technology that's out there that's mature and reliable. We've taken the time to integrate into one simple to use app. So it allows you to have chat. Obi: We use Matrix as this federated, decentralized, encrypted chat protocol. It has money with the combination of Lightning, Bitcoin, and Fediment and more. So it has a built in web browser inside it. And therefore you can access all of the Bitcoin ecosystem of apps from Bitrefill to Unleash. chat to BTCmaps and beyond. Obi: All in one place. So you don't have to have this smorgasbord of different apps and tabs open one app to use them all. And the app itself, we announced as well, is now source available and will eventually be open source as well. So we're trying to make the best of it. portal into the freedom technology space. Obi: So that's Fedi. And then Fedi the company builds the Fedi app. And we also have something we call the FedEye Order, which is, this selection of incredible people, FedEye Knights, who are on the ground and they, you can think of them as like a Decentralized genius bar. If you've got an iPhone, you have the genius bar that goes along with the phone. Obi: The reason why the iPhone is so amazing is not just the phone, but it's also the incredible support you can get. If you can go to an Apple store and you go to the genius bar, they can help you. we have that instead of it being in, you know, Fifth Avenue or Oxford street in London or so on. Obi: It's in, the capital of Togo or Uganda or. Guatemala, or so on. On the ground, they will locate communities, they will educate communities. and they will support communities on Bitcoin, on Lightning, on FediMent, on all of these different websites and services that are out there to provide that sort of support that's needed for the communities that are outside of the existing Bitcoin space. How Federations Work Knut: Okay, great. so how does a federation work? Obi: so the first thing you have to do, wherever you custody is where you transact and do and you live and so on, which is why. Banks try very much when you're young to get you to hold a bank account with them because they know that most people never leave and then all other services are provided. So how do you actually custody? Obi: For many people they've had two choices. Either they do everything themselves and that's the best if you can do it just like it's the best to be able to build and fix your own car or house but not everybody can do that but that is always the best because no one's going to love you. And put as much care in as yourself. Obi: The other extreme is to fully outsource it, fully give it to some private party, which is actually what ends up 95 percent plus people doing, and that's putting their money on a Coinbase or some other centralized service. and the same with communication. They would use some sort of centralized service. Obi: They would use a WhatsApp, an X. com, a Telegram, a WeChat or so on. They would use some centralized chat. And if you think about it. Our lives are communication and money and value. So both those things, most people outsource, some people take it in house. If I want to set up a federation, which is to do with the custody of the money, where FedeMint is this middle, middle house, I can find within my community, a number of trusted parties. Obi: We call them guardians. So let's say. You found us three plus, you know, your great t shirt, Greg Voss. The minimum we suggest is four for various Esoteric reasons From a cryptographic security point of view we suggest four, but you can have seven You can have you can keep growing you could have we've seen people have seen Federation stood up with as many as 40 people in them And it will get slower and slower if it gets beyond that, but, but technically you can. Obi: It'll be this, it'll create this huge multisig, i. e. multiple people have to sign before you do a transaction on chain. And so multisig starts to get expensive of a certain size. But let's say us three plus Greg. We would FedeMint software. we would download the 30 minute software onto a machine that we have spare, and we would set up and run it. Obi: The setup process will, part of it will enter the information about the other three. And we make that very simple, it's a web interface, you point and click and you get a code and you share that code with the other parties, everybody shares the code of each other. Maybe you go into a group chat and paste each other's code. Obi: Everybody copies each other's, enters it into our own FediMint and then they connect to each other and they form a federation. As long as you keep that box, running, connected to the internet, and connected to electricity, the federation, for each, all the four, the federation are one. Obi: But because it's a federation, if one of them, for example, had a power cut, or lost their internet, or had to change their domain name, or something like that, The other three will be able to continue and operate. Yep, so you've now created this community custody platform. Now, anyone with the FEDI app or any other app that supports the FEDIMINT protocol, Webimint, and we're hoping that many others will set up FEDIMINT wallets, like there are multiple Lightning wallets in future. Obi: Any FDI min wallet compatible wallets like Fedie, can connect to your federation At the end of setting up the fed min server will show a QR code and the string that represents how to connect to your Federation. So you could take your Fed app, or the Mutiny wallet, or Web Mint, or any other, fed mint compatible wallet, and you'll scan that QR code. Obi: And you've now connected to that federation and that federation becomes, you can now use it to custody. Now, what will happen is, if for example, someone wants to send money to you, you would, just as if you're using a Bitcoin wallet, let's say it's on chain. you would say, I want to receive, enter the amount and it'll show a QR code. Obi: Someone else who's using a normal Bitcoin wallet will scan that code and send over the Bitcoin main chain money to you. But what's actually happening is your Fediap is communicating with the Federation. Your Federation is creating a Bitcoin address for you to send to and sends it back to you for you to display. Obi: Okay. And then a user, someone else who's using a completely different wallet will send money to that address. Actually goes to the federation and they, the four of us combined will process that and create e cash, which is like a token representation of the Obi: Bitcoin. And then the e cash will be sent to you. But the way it, the way it's sent is completely privacy preserving. So the guardians have no way of knowing who they are providing that service for, who's receiving the money. Obi: There's full privacy. Obi: All right, and neither does the sender, I assume, like the sender doesn't, that they sent Bitcoin to us and address. They have no idea who, so if there are, let's say we set this up and we're using it for our friends and extended family and in total, there are 40 of us or 50 of us Obi: When you send to that address, there's no way to know out of those 40 or 50 people who received it or who requested it. Knut: All right, so, a bit about the guardians and the multisig, that's obviously because you don't want to have a single point of attack for each, federation, right? Obi: point of failure, Knut: A single point of Obi: the more likely thing is that someone's machine, if you had one machine, the most likely thing that will happen, almost guaranteed, at some point you'll have some sort of power cut or internet cut. Internet cut is probably the most likely you'll, you'll have a glitch on your internet for 30 minutes. Obi: If you do, Everyone using your federation won't be able to use your system for 30 minutes. Knut: but it's also an attack vector. Like if the, if the, if there's a lot of money in the federation and, so there's, there's an incentive to attack the guardians. Like, can you be completely sure that the guardians don't know each other's identities and stuff like that? Like how, I know you think a lot about the attack vector. Knut: So I'm like, can you go into that a bit? Obi: can't be completely sure of anything in life. So the answer to that is automatically no. Can you be completely sure of something? but, it depends on the Also, there's an assumption that you have, that the people don't know each other. Cause I think very often in, there's two types of scenarios. Obi: It could be that each party completely doesn't know each other, or the more common scenario will be that you're some community or some group of friends. And within you, you've decided. Of the people who are my friends and family and so on, these four people are the ones who are consistently the most reliable, the most trusted and so on. Obi: They do know each other, and you know who they are, and it's because you know who they are that you're comfortable with them holding. they're the Uncle Jims of the family. they're known to be reliable. They're known to be people who care about their friends and family. Obi: that's very often actually what we're seeing is the more common scenario than the ones where people are completely, anonymous to each other. But as it matures, we may see the other scenario happen as well. The Uncle Network Luke: It's a literal uncle network. I know Uncle Rockstar started the uncle network here on infinity day. Yeah, you got the brother Luke, and so that's four, so we're Obi: are you an uncle? Knut: am an uncle officially now. Knut: an uncle as well, are like, but dubbed by Uncle Rockstar Obi: I haven't been dubbed I, so Obi: you are a good candidate. candidate, but I am biologically now, an Knut: oh, congratulations, Obi: Yeah, How Fedi Launched Luke: Okay, well, I think we are looking just to dig in more about Fedi Fedi Mint and, what does your launch actually mean? Because the app has been in beta for quite a while, right? what's happened, to make it that you can launch? Obi: Yeah, that's a very good question, because, we, the app from the, if you just focus on the app, from the previous version to the one we went live, there are only a few, changes. It was more about, did we have enough feedback from enough people on the ground that we thought that the product was stable enough, reliable enough? Obi: behind the scenes, we've done a lot of internal plus from trusted friends, external security audits of different elements as well. I don't like to publicize it because it's just something we do. We don't think it's something you should promote to saying, Hey, look at what we're doing. We just try to build the best that we can. Obi: and the really, big thing was to just say, a lot of people ask, is Fedi ready? And we wanted to get to a line where we thought it was good enough. And we got to that line. And then, we also wanted to have enough proof points in, the world. And again, we got to that line. So these things were separate things that were happening. Obi: And finally, it was very clear to us that we wanted to make the software, Ultimately open source. And that was a big call because, you know, we raised 21 million and, normally you go two routes. You go, you raise a little bit and you stay open source and so on. Or you raise a lot and you stay closed source. Obi: We believe that, over time, it's going to be considered, over the coming years, it's going to consider that you should always go open source no matter what you're doing, but we're in a transition. Five years ago, raising this much and going open source would be considered crazy, in five years time, raising this much and not being open source would be considered crazy. Obi: And we wanted to be, afforded in that. So. We actually went source available. It's called a business source license. So it means you go source available and you set a date where you must go open source or earlier. and we set those. So we cannot change it now. We cannot say we're going to actually change our mind. Obi: Well, the only thing we can say is that we're going to go open source earlier. that's the only thing we could do. Or if we decide to shut down, it's automatically open source as well. That's the sort of dead man's switch as well. Or we decide we're no longer going to develop the software. Obi: we've added caveats like that, which are not optional, but actually add more restrictions. So no one's going to complain with us going open source earlier. that was agreed and put in place on May the 4th. So May the 4th we review of this year, 2024, just for posterity. Obi: we, got enough proof points from different markets, that we felt that we're onto something here. Does that mean that we've finished? No, there's a lot of work to do, but enough to say that the idea of taking all of the best of freedom technologies out there. And putting them into one place and one app that's easy to use is something that's compelling to people. Obi: And also we had enough to see the federation model. of this sort of really simple to use and privacy preserving multi sig is also a powerful model. So the model was proven out. And then finally the software, we got to a point where we thought, it's, of course, we've got years of more development, but it was good enough as well. Obi: I think that was the final piece. And we thought, okay, we're ready to go. And we then set a date a few weeks after that. But even when we were getting close to it, we started the process of shooting a video because we just wanted to show people are wondering what were we doing for the last nearly two years and we wanted to show that as well. Luke: what's the synopsis of the last two years? Like the big highlights? Obi: so, I always say there's three phases in the business. There's initialization, of a startup, initialization, market product fit, in our case, not product market fit, I can go into why. And then, growth. And so, this phase that was, the end was finally, we crossed the line, on August the 6th, 2024, was the initialization phase. Obi: And so, if you think about the analogy of, like you wanted to have A shop selling designer pet clothing, and you've decided you have this crazy idea and you have to first fund it, find the people to build it, and then find the place, set up the store, make the clothes and, open. Obi: That's the initialization phase. And then once it's launched, you then. Start figuring out, okay, people come in, there's initial, interest, and then, you have this trickle of people coming in, you have to figure out what do they like, what do they not like, what do I have to adjust until it becomes this sort of regular viable business. Luke: That's the market product fit phase. And then you start saying, okay, I've got something that's working fully and then I will repeat it, make more and more and more, Widgets? Obi: Doggy fashion, Excel stores, whatever you want to call it. the last two years was our initialization phase. Obi: we had this, amazing product with FediMint. we had this initial set of, crazy people with Erik, the inventor of FedEvent, Justin, who's, who was also incredible engineer, who was actually the one who suggested that we make a commercial enterprise. up until that, both myself and Erik just suggested it would be an open source project. Obi: And then myself as well with my just, you know, only maybe six or seven months before we were finally finished selling. a Bitcoin exchange, the UK's longest running Bitcoin exchange. and so having that experience of building a company that was profitable and understanding what it meant to build something that custodies a large amount of money for people and provides them services is easy to use and all that sort of stuff. Obi: and everything around that customer service, everything around that. So, we were there, I had a visit to the Oslo Freedom Forum, and that was the catalyst. we did one talk at, Bitcoin Miami, and, Alex Gladstein saw that, he suggested I go to Oslo Freedom Forum. I went, my mind was blown and I also realized whenever you're thinking about a business, you have to always think about chicken and the egg and how do you find your initial market for eventually this product is applicable to everybody everywhere, but who's the first use case that has a demand so high that they're going to willing to go through the really buggy early versions and help you. Obi: Stabilize it to the point where it's something that people can click a button and it works everywhere. I realized that the community of human rights defenders and later on also humanitarian organizations fit that, need. We really cared about that need and we were concerned, we wanted to help, but we realized that this product could help in combination with the rest of the Bitcoin ecosystem. Obi: That's what's quite cool. FediMint is the thing that handles the custody, but you still need to buy things, sell things, find things, and so on, and that's where the Fedi app also comes into play, but without FediMint as the core to handle the custody, the rest didn't make sense. Obi: Then we started, it was, then you had this sort of scene from like the Magnificent Seven or so on where you're, you're finding your initial team members. So we found Renato Rodriguez, I chased her for like six months ago. She should have, you know, got a restraining order for six months trying to get her to join. Obi: just if you look at the initial team, it was just everybody, the whole team is amazing. But it was just trying to find these incredible people. they tended to just immediately understand the value proposition and the market we were trying to help and were already doing incredibly well in their own careers, but there was something missing for them. Obi: And when they saw this, it was like this fulfilled There's some other need that they had beyond the monetary need. The potential was amazing, but the mission side of it was what helped us bring on this incredible team. So I believe in philosophy, people, process, product. The philosophy was amazing, who we're helping, the potential, it's helping people and in so doing we're helping Bitcoin, in so doing we're helping the world. Obi: And that's a powerful philosophy and mission and that attracted this incredible group of people. And if you've got the philosophy and you've got an incredible group of people, they will put in the processes that will lead to the right product. Obi: It's like, let's say the video, for example. I said to Renata, I want a really powerful launch video and it should be like the best Apple keynote speech combined with a UNICEF or Save the Children commercial. That's it. That's the whole brief and that whole video. And somebody says, you need to go to Madeira. Obi: You need to say this. And I just woke up and I say what she says. But the whole elements of it, all of it was her and her team, Mary and marketing and everybody building that over the following X months. and I didn't actually see the video myself. Until less than a month before we launched it for the first time as a rough draft. Obi: And it was just basically perfect. My comments were like, I actually didn't have any significant comments, but that was the same for most of the team and the design of the product. We had this incredible designer, Skylar. I would give a brief and so as, Erik's brief was, I just want to be proud of something that I should be proud of, and that was it, you know? Obi: And I was like, it just needs to be really simple. And that's the high level. And I might give comments on a little bit here or there, but in general, whenever he gave me it, I would say, well, he Skylarized it, like just Skylarize it. And he would just come up with something that was great. and I think that was the last two years. Obi: We had the team we raised. again, the choice of investors was really, really key. I was very, very sure, especially from my previous experiences, that I only wanted Bitcoin on the investors, especially for the first couple of rounds. And when I've sometimes do talks on how to set up a Bitcoin company, my first slide says don't do it, but instead sort of a Bitcoin business, not a Bitcoin startup. Obi: And I explain the difference between the two. but one part is, if you do want to raise capital, be really careful about your choice of investors. The wrong investors will, well, and they don't mean to, but they will kill your business without meaning to, but the right investors will. So, we were really, really careful about our choice of investors and the initial team and then the initial team brought on the rest of the team after that. Obi: And that was the last, that's the last two years we've set ourself up very well. I did, being a classic entrepreneur, think it'll take six months, took two years. So I, so my estimation on that was a little bit off, but the end result, I'm really excited about. And now, now we're, now we're off to the races. Great news, everyone! Bitcoin, the inverse of clown world is out now. It's the successor to everything divided by 21 million. And it's based on the last two years of podcasts that we've done together. So if you like the show, you're going to love the book. Find the book on bitcoininfinitystore. com or on Amazon. That's right. We have our own store now. BitcoinInfinityStore. com. You can find not just books, but merchandise based on everything divided by 21 million, check out Bitcoin, the inverse of Clown World today and buy some other stuff while you're there too. This show is brought to you by Bit Box, our favorite hardware wallet. It's Swiss engineered and has all the most important security features to keep your Bitcoin safe while keeping a user experience that even your grandma can use. So visit Bit Box. Do Swiss slash Freedom to learn more, or use Code Freedom at checkout for 5% off. And remember, it's the Bit Box zero two Bitcoin only edition. Make sure to get that Bitcoin only firmware. How does Fedi Make Money? Knut: How does the app make money? Obi: Yeah. Knut: For the company? Obi: if you use the app, whenever you use the Freddie app. whenever a transaction happens, which would have occurred a fee. So it's a Bitcoin transaction, e cash or a lightning transaction. We add on an additional fee, 21, 21 basis points. So 0. Knut: Oh, yeah, Obi: And so, and the good thing is because we can charge in sats and I believe actually even fractions of a sat, it's a progressive tax, which a fee. Obi: So what I mean by that is. If you're sending, let's say 100 through, then you would be charged on 100. 21, but if you're, worth of value, but if you're sending through 1, then you'll be charged 0. 21 cents. And if you're sending through 0. 10, you'll be charged 0. 20. 0 to 1 cents. So it'll always be a very small percentage of what you're sending. Obi: Now, people might say in certain countries, don't they have mobile money and so on. But the problem is those mobile money systems have minimum fees. And it might be, 1%, which is not that bad, say. And it might be, even in some terms of scale, it could be half a percent, but with a minimum fee of 20 cents. Obi: So if you're sending a hundred dollars, that's okay. But if you're sending, 1, that's 20%. And so if you have someone who has a monthly salary of. 10 in some of these markets, that 0. 20 fee starts becoming quite a significant per transaction hit. So therefore it becomes unaffordable for you to use mobile money. Obi: So even though it's prolific above a certain wealth level, and so that leaves many people out, in the rain. But because this is progressive, if you're selling 10 cents, the, fee will actually round to zero. I mean it will be a fee, but you'll see it in sats, but if you were showing, trying to show it in local currency, it would basically be, it'll say about zero and then you click and you realize it's this small amount of sats. Knut: so, yeah. the big thing that I'm thinking of if I'm like. Playing this out in my head with where this could be in 10 years, like you could run entire virtual nations on a federation, right? If you have the money and the communication and whatever other useful apps, Obi: I think the big thing I think is, if you look at the internet, there are large organizations where, people use and they're highly centralized. You have a few people who may be wealthy enough to have their own direct connection to the internet, but the majority of people are connected on the internet. Obi: I don't know at this stage, millions of intranets, like household intranets effectively, company intranets and school intranets and so on, where it's one connection to the internet shared by multiple people. That's actually the majority of people. And it's that middle ground between these huge mega organizations that people are connected to one mainframe. Obi: With millions of users, I think there are very few of them now, but that was the denominant way at the beginning. It was these huge, centralized ways of connecting AOL, CompuServe, and so on. Now, they're actually relatively rare, but that was at the beginning. All of the internet was that. A few centralized parties, and I would liken them, conceptually in value terms, in value custody terms versus information custody terms, to, a coin basis. Obi: And also there were a lot of hobbyists who had their own direct ISDN connection to the internet. but now most people connect through these intranets where they get one router, one connection, and they share with everybody in their household. That would be a criminal of the Uncle Jim federations or in their school or in their football club or in their office. Obi: That's probably 95 percent of people and I think that this approach of federated model from the size from. Five or six people up to five or six hundred thousand, that range can cover 80, 90 percent of usage. How to Use Fedi(Mint) Luke: Can we go back to the basics of how feint works in the perspective of someone actually using this thing? So, you explained to us last time how it works, but just for my own sanity, check that I got it. if you are sending e cash within the federation, that is just. Luke: Direct between two users. There's not even a record outside of that. No one knows those transactions are even happening. Is that essentially correct? Obi: Yeah. So the federation helps you mint technically, because actually the user creates their own e cash, they create their own e cash, but it's unstamped and then they give it to the federation and they stick in an envelope. And they give it to the federation with some carbon copy paper on the inside the envelope as well. Obi: the federation collectively signs. So let's say all four people go stamp, stamp, stamp. And that makes it valid. then they give back the envelope to the user. The user then opens the envelope with the cache that they created, just some random piece of data. Obi: And they now have this Ucash, but the Ucash they've created now has got the four stamps on it, say, for the four of us. And so anyone else in that federation, any other, person who's also connected to the federation. They can just literally, directly give them this, random set of data. Obi: Let's say it's a picture of a fashionable dog and they can just give it to someone else. and the person will receive it and they don't really care what the data says. They just look, are the four stamps on it? Yes. Then it means it was stamped by the Federation, which means it's backed by a certain amount of information. Obi: Actual Bitcoin. Yeah. So take the whole, the full path. Someone deposits some Bitcoin in return. They also, along with the Bitcoin, send them an envelope, give them an envelope with this random piece of data in it to the Federation and the Federation receives the Bitcoin. Okay. I've received the Bitcoin envelope. Obi: Okay. I've received the Bitcoin. I will stamp. I received one, let's say. 10, 000 Satoshis. So I'm going to take my 10, 000 Satoshi stamp and stamp this envelope with 10, 000 Satoshis, pass it around to the other four, they all stamp the 10, 000 Satoshi stamp. And then give that back to the user. Obi: User opens the envelope and says, I've got, okay, I've got an e cash note with, with, that's been proven that the, that it's been validated by the guardians. So as long as we all trust the guardians are holding that and that they will honor this and redeem. That's it. So now I can pass it to anyone in the Federation. Obi: They receive it. They look at this picture of the cute dog, but what they're really looking at is, is it got the four stamps on it and it's 10, 000. So that means I've now received 10, 000 token. They can now at some point in the future, Often they do it immediately if they've gone into connection, but they don't have to. Obi: They can give it back to the Federation. Federation will receive it and each one will check their own signature of the guardians. Okay, it's properly signed. Therefore, I'm willing to, and they might give them a Bitcoin address to send the money on chain to. Obi: So they will receive it, it looks good, they will then, record that this, e cash note has been spent. But they don't know, of all the e cash they received, which one it was, because each one they received in the first place was in an envelope. So was it the first one they received, or the middle one they received? Obi: They have no idea. It could have been received yesterday or a month ago. No way. All they know is, I must have stamped it, so it was one of the ones I stamped. And then they will look at the address the person's asking to send the Bitcoin to, and they will take some of the Bitcoin that they're holding in the multi sig that we're holding between the four of us and send it to that address. Obi: So that's called Redeem versus Mint. Now, the user experience from a user, we can get onto Lightning, that's another level of complexity, but it's simple just for Bitcoin and eCash for now. Obi: Someone sends me Bitcoin or I send it to myself from an outside wallet and I receive e cash. And then someone else in the, in the federation wants to, once I want to pay them some e cash, they will give me, they will give me a QR code to, to scan to pay and I will scan. And literally the e cash that's on my phone gets sent to them directly. Obi: From me to them, one to one, that person when they receive it could keep it on their phone or they could say, you know what, I want to send that back to the federation and they can send it back to the federation and then the federation can destroy that, issue them new, fresh e cash in different denominations, maybe not 10, 000, but 10, 1, 000, you know, just like with notes, you could go and get change. Obi: Yeah, because if someone transacts, if you're saying it gets sent from one computer, phone being a computer, whatever, one device to another, well, that original device would still Obi: Yes, Luke: copy of the thing on, right. Obi: So they will still have a copy. Now you are in the same, this is where the community aspect works, you are in the same community, If you're in the same community, and the person, it's a merchant and you receive, and your phone will remember when you received what e cash, yeah? Obi: Even though it's private, you do know this e cash was received at this time and this time for, and so, especially when you integrate with points of sale, it will say, well, you received this e cash for this purchase. You'll know that. so then if you go to redeem it, at the end of the day, and some of it doesn't match, you will know as the merchant, which e cash was involved in that. Obi: You'll say, well, the e cash involved in this transaction. And that transaction was with John. So you've got proof of work. it's the same as if you have a merchant and you receive cash and then you finally got the end of the day to a bank. Obi: And some of the notes are counterfeit. Now, you don't find high levels of counterfeit notes in a community where people know each other. It's normally in these widespread communities. But in those scenarios, what most people will do and how the default way the app works is the moment you receive it, it immediately goes off and redeems it and then issues itself back new, new change. Obi: Yeah, that seems like a good default implementation. but if you have no internet connectivity, you can still use it and still receive. even if you can't send over the internet, you can create a QR code, which contains the e cash in the QR code, and the person can literally scan it and receive through the screen. Obi: Because as long as it's the QR code, the e cash note is just some text. So a QR code can represent that text and you can scan it, even if you have no data. So for example, it could be you're in an area where you have no data, rural, Latin America or so on. But it could also be something more innocuous. Obi: You could just be in a big sort of, But the thing is is that you might be at a Glastonbury like concert and there are a thousand phones and there's no data. Or you're in an indoor conference place underground and there's no data. But you can still take payments or the merchant has internet because they're the ones who really need it. Obi: But the buyer doesn't and so in which case the merchant has internet because they're connected wired in because they're fixed, but the buyer doesn't need to have internet to pay and the merchant will just take a risk just like in most merchants in high streets they accept a certain amount of breakage and a certain amount of transactions are gonna be charged back by, credit card companies and so on. Obi: I used to be a CTO for a major pan-European, online auction company. At the time I was competing with, eBay and so on. we were in a headliner, 300 hundred people working for me in technology. It was a very big technology offering. And we were doing millions of transactions a week. Obi: It was very high volume. And in those e commerce sites, you just accept a certain amount of breakage, a certain amount of returns, and a certain amount of chargebacks, even if you do nothing wrong and you just factor it into your costs. For the benefit of the simplicity of the experience. Fedi and Nostr Knut: you mentioned Nostr before, like, what's the marriage between Fedi and Nostr? Well, I would say right now, we are, because I think. Knut: we're beyond dating. We're engaged. But we want to really take the two footed tackle of no return, to use a football euphemism. a web of trust thing, right? Obi: Yeah, I think, whenever, from the first point I saw Nostr, a lot of people thought it was just social media and so on. Obi: I think social media is Trojan horse is the wrong word, but it's the, initial vector by which it infiltrates communities. But what you're actually doing is building a simple, trust system and a simple discovery system. It's a form of decentralized search and it's a form decentralized identity. Obi: Cause you, to search, you have to identify things to be able to search. So they're sort of two sides of the same coin. now the first thing you're using it for is identifying people who want to speak publicly and share their thoughts and so on and so forth and follow them and give feedback and like. Obi: But it always seemed to me to, way more powerful than that. And I think now people, generally understand it that way. And so, What we've already done, in Fedi, and a lot of developers really like the way it works, if you sign up to Fedi, or if you download the Fedi app and start using it, you, first of all, you don't need to give your email, you don't need to give your phone number because it's not required, but, we do ask you to come up with some sort of Username for yourself. Obi: That doesn't even have to be unique, by the way. We will add a unique element at the end, from it. But what we do is, whenever you create that label, which you can change the name, but we create, an NSEC, which is a Nostr, identity effectively. A unique identity and we automatically create that for you. Obi: So again, for our users, we don't want to start educating them on the history of Austrian economics and Bitcoin and inflation at the beginning or a Nostr, et cetera, and how it works and relays. And we just want them to start using it. then subtly over time we expose certain features of it. So people become curious and then eventually. Obi: You want to learn how this thing that's delivering value works, but we've put proof of work first, proof of talk second. So we educate through letting people see the benefits. And then there might be some people might say, well, how does this car thing work? Or how does this fridge thing work? But I don't need to know how refrigerant works to be able to use a fridge or how microwaves work to use a microwave. Obi: When they want to know how all this stuff works, but we benefit first. So, and so and that's how it works with Nostr We immediately give you an NSEC. Obi: And so because we've got that if you go and use unleash. chat, for example within the app It will go and you click login and there's one option login by Nostr You click that and it'll just within the app pop up something saying Nostr Do you want to log in with Nostr? And you click yes, and you're logged in and it just works and then you, and then also now you're logged in and then you can, and then you click, deposit money and instead of having to go to a different app, copy and paste the QR codes, it just, it pops up and says, do you, this, this, what the app's asking you to deposit this amount of money? Obi: Do you want to go ahead? Yes. And then it's e cash. Is, is converted into lightning and then that you pay by lightning. But from your point of view, there's a circling key for three or four seconds. You have now credited your account. Do you want to withdraw the money back account? You click withdraw the amount. Obi: Three or four seconds, it's been withdrawn to your account and, and it's all within the same app. so, but that only works because now if you, close the app or delete the mods, because you can delete these mods or these additional pieces of functionality, they're basically webpages, but the icon for them, and they have an app like experience, but they're actually just webpages. Obi: and then you go away and then you delete the app from your service. Like six months later, you come back, you, you, you enter your 12 words, you're, you're re log on. And then if you scan to join a federation again, it will recognize that you were a member of the federation before, and it will reconstitute and recreate all your e cash and put it back on your phone. Obi: And then if you click on, Unleash your chat or Stacker News or anyone that supports logging by Nostr. Your login with the same details and so on. So you basically, and we want to make that even more seamless. So from 12 words, your entire life can you think about moving from one mobile phone to another, where you have to move all your apps, your banking apps, your chat apps. Obi: And now you could do that with just go and also try moving from an iPhone to an Android phone, Android to an iPhone. It's a nightmare. Here you could just download the Fedi app on your iPhone. this is some far point in the future. You don't have just chat, but you also have voice. You have video, all of that running from encrypted chat. 12 Magic Words Obi: you have access to money from, custody and payments. You have access to all these apps and then you back up 12 words. And there's something we call social backup, which is mind blowing, but, that's in beta. But let's just say backup 12 words, and then you delete that app, go to a different phone, could be an Android or an iPhone, and you just enter 12 words, and your entire thing comes back. Obi: Not partially back, but it all will come back. based on just those 12 words and that's only made possible because of Nostr and we want it over time. Knut: mean, when you think about it, it's insane. It's already insane with bitcoins, with the 12 magic words, because like every time I pass a security check at an airport, I think that go ahead, have my 200 milliliters of toothpaste. I'll, I have my 12 magic words, like it's the ultimate fuck you to, to anyone trying to meddle with your business, right? Knut: that's the dream. I mean, we're not fully there, but it's, I would say it's like, we're like 90 percent there, but to extend beyond just your Bitcoin, Nostr is the protocol that allows us to do that because it's notes and other stuff and the other stuff can be, an encrypted version of the settings and so on that you have that we can store and be willing to pay for. Obi: And then when you recover, you have your bitcoin, but then you can go off and send a request to say here, I'm willing to recover this file. Here's some zaps for the file and you get the file back and that additional file then contains the information. Okay, these are the federations you are a member of, you rejoin them. Obi: These are the mods that you had, they're reset up. These are the settings you had, they're reset up. And then you log on them automatically using Nostr as well, the NSEC and Nostr login. from your point of view as the user, 12 words, it's back. I mean, you might have to drink a cup of coffee while it's happening, but 5, 10, 20 minutes later, it's back. Knut: it's amazing, and it's an inheritance plan. Like, you can live forever by just letting your descendants, giving them the 12 words when you're on your deathbed. Obi: backup also becomes really powerful, because social backup means that, cause the 12 words is still another thing to secure. And it's sort of one of these turtles all the way down type scenarios. Okay. We've got all this incredible security Fort Knox like, but behind them, but I walk around the back of the Fort Knox is these 12 words that's stored. Obi: you also give one to your cousin and you say, look after this as a backup. And your cousin stores it on a fridge magnet. You know, you don't know, or you don't know your, your, your security is the lowest common denominator. Obi: For your 12 words. And Knut: is never stronger than the weakest Obi: then the weakest link. And so with social backup, which is definitely an early beta. what we can do is use the power of the federation where we can take your 12 words, encrypt them and then split it up between the four guardians in this case, or seven guardians or 40 guardians or whatever. Obi: For larger federations, and they all hold a piece of your encrypted piece of your, of Knut: is important here. Obi: Yeah. Knut, what are you doing over there? I'm stamping my seed. Everyone tells me I should, that it's good for bitcoin security and whatnot, and that I should go balls deep into bitcoin security, so I'm stamping. You don't do it like that, Knut. You don't stamp that seed. You stamp your seed phrase. What? Your seed phrase. Oh, so that's what these things are for. oh, I get it now. That's exactly right, Knut. And you can get everything you need to stamp your seed phrase at stampseed. com. And be sure to check out our limited edition Everything Divided by 21 Million Titanium Seed Plate. And use code INFINITY at checkout for 15 percent off. That's fantastic! And it hurts way less! Redundancy in Fedi Luke: So this gets me back to what happens when one of the guardians drops off, and if it's like in a permanent way, if that one guardian is holding a piece of everyone else's 12 words, does everyone Obi: Yeah. But it uses a prot, this is crypto, where cryptography comes in. So it's not like. We've taken your 12 words and split it up free between four guardians. Instead, you encrypt it using a scheme that allows each one of the four of us to have a cryptographic piece. Obi: But as long as any three of us combine our piece together, we can recombine. It is, it's called, SHAIR Secret Sharing Scheme, but it's a way of cryptographically achieving that. Luke: Excellent, I think you mentioned last time as well that if a guardian does go down, essentially you can replace that guardian, can you take us through that, adding or replacing a guardian if that ever were to need to happen? Obi: replacing a garden is, probably one of the most complex things. And so you wouldn't necessarily replace a guardian, but what you would do is, some, if someone were to go down, there's two different things. The machine. Or the guardian, the actual person. So if the machine goes down, you can set up a new machine and you can recover the status of that. Obi: You can, you can download the 30 minute software on that new machine. So that's the actual server that's running. And that will then connect to the rest of the federation and, and carry on. So as long as the guardian has a backup of their keys, they can recover that one machine and, and catch up and it'll automatically catch up. Obi: Just like if you turn off a Bitcoin node and turn it on, it will reconnect to the Bitcoin network and catch up. It's a similar concept. so that's if a machine went down, if a machine was temporarily disconnected from the internet or, lost power, it would just restart and reconnect and you will have zero downtime as a user, as long as it's still running and active. Obi: And this will all be, you'll notice that the performance will still be the same, but if you went into settings for that federation, you'll see that three of the four are running, so one is not running, but that won't affect your usage. Obi: Is the N of M like a ratio, or is it always N 1, for example? It's a ratio. the number of guardians that, you need to have is dependent on how much redundancy. So if you want to be able to handle one guardian going down, then you'll need to have, one times by three plus one. So that's four. So that's why you need three or four. Obi: if you want to handle two going down, then you need two times by three plus one, which is seven. So it's five of seven. 7 of 10, 9 of 13, and so on and so forth. You can have more than that, but the time that you get additional redundancy is every 3, but you can have, for example, 4 of 5, if you wanted to. Obi: Anyway, so, yeah, in the event that someone goes down, that the machine goes down, you can recover. recently there was an issue where one machine, where two federations, had an issue with the domain name for one of those servers. And so if the domain name for someone is no longer available, you can now, with the update that came out a couple of weeks after that, you can modify, the domain name Obi: for a Guardian 30 minute server, and it would communicate that securely with the other, Federation servers and then reconnect and, continue to operate. But it's important to, even in that scenario where the Federa Guardian, the domain name server went down, the Federation itself, Continue to operate because there was still at least free running. Obi: So there was no downtime for the user. Whereas if, if we hadn't been federated, then for the one week or so where that was down, the users would have had no access at all, which would be the case where you're connecting to a centralized or a single server, offering. now, if one of the guardians, for some reason, the actual people who are running the Fedemyst server, for some reason, you no longer trusted them, they'd been helpful all their life and all of a sudden they decided, or they've been turned by some, malevolent nefarious actor. Obi: Then you, if you could in theory pass to someone else, but in practice, you know, how do I know that the other person isn't still going to continue to operate it and so on and so forth. So what you actually want to do is set up a different federation and transfer people, the other three guardians and inform people with a different set of four people. Obi: So those three, plus someone else. And just tell people to transfer their balances across. But transferring balances across is as easy as doing a lightning transaction from one server to another. You can, you know, within the FEDI app, be a member of multiple federations at the same time. I mean, right now, I mean, I'm a bit of a power user, but I'm a member of, over a dozen different federations from around the world. Obi: I mean, well over a dozen, I think, yeah. and as we've, I'm sure there's people in the team with way more than that. but obviously I can't advertise the names because many of them are private federations. So, but there's a few public ones, but there's way more private ones. Interoperability Luke: So is the e cash, if you're in multiple federations, is it interoperable there, or it's like a more like a, it's a lightning transaction between those two federations, but it's e cash that lives Obi: You got it. It's, E cash lives within its federation, but the interoperability layer for most people is not on chain. It's for the vast majority of people, it's Lightning, so, but the user experience of sending e cash from one person to another in the same federation, sending e cash from one person to someone else receiving Lightning. Obi: on a different wallet that's got nothing to do with Ferdie Mint. And finally sending e cash from one person in one federation. To someone else in another federation over the Lightning Network in between is exactly the same. From your point of view, QR code scan and the system will combination of the Fedi app and or whatever Fedi Mint compatible app you're using and Fedi Mint servers will make the experience Obi: I just need to send the person the cash. In this case I can send e cash out over Lightning and that's my job is done. And then the other side would be a Lightning wallet and it will receive. And in this case, I will send e cash over Lightning to another federation, but I don't even know if it's another federation, it's just a Lightning address. Obi: And then the other federation, receives the transaction and the other 30 minute server receives e cash on the other side. But from a user's point of view, this is the thing that also took the two years to make the experience the same. You just don't have to worry about which one is doing. Obi: The fees will be slightly different. One won't have a Lightning component to the fee, e cash to e cash, but, the other two will because it will be like, in both cases, it will be e cash to Lightning, from your point of view. Luke: So is there a fee to send e cash to someone else in the same federation? No, I guess. Right. Obi: It depends on the federation. the federation, could choose not to charge a fee and many in these times choose not to because they're doing it for friends and family and so on and the fees are minimal. the Ferryman protocol does support, what we call a DDoS fee. So basically you're spending effort time Obi: to sign these notes, the issuing is done by the user, but the stamping takes time. you're signing something cryptographically, that's effort. and you're also doing it in a federated manner, so you're coordinating and then you're all collectively signing. Obi: So, to avoid DDoS, you can turn on a fee and, by our calculations, it doesn't need to be very large, one sat per note that issued is enough to prevent, because if someone really tried to DDoS you at scale, they could, but on normal sort of consumer laptops or hardware, they'll have to spend, hundreds of thousands a month at that sort of, one sat per note, and in which case you'll say, fine, you're giving me hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of Bitcoin to burn my, CPU. Obi: Well, not to burn it, but just to heat my CPU. so you can charge a fee. And I think some will experiment with charging a DDoS fee, which is similar to Bitcoin. the fees in Bitcoin are a DDoS protection vector. So it's the same concept. Fedi's Roadmap Knut: All right. So, what's on the roadmap? What's going on? How does the future look like? What will you be working on the next five years? And where do you see FedeMint going? Obi: that's actually, the most, fun phase. up until now, we had a hypothesis and we had some early feedback, but a lot of it was based on, A hypothesis and theory as to what we thought people needed and we felt that freedom technology had got to a stage where they were good enough to provide this combined experience. Obi: And that was a hypothesis. And we think we've got early validation, but we built that. Now it's life. And now it's the fun, but it's also the scary bit because we now actually see people using it and we test all our hypothesis. And this is the point where you have to be very detail oriented, very much listening to the users and listening to what they say Obi: we cannot ignore if there are. Parts of our hypothesis that are incorrect, we have to adjust to support that. So it's going to be a lot of listening and we've already got hundreds of requests for feedback. and then working to rectify, or deal with the questions or feedback they've given us or the suggestions they've given us. Obi: and we're going to continue to iterate and then we bring it back out to users and see what they think. And we keep in that loop. This is the market product fit loop until. The product that we produce, fits the requirements of the market. Now, again, I, I'm hoping that takes six months or less, just like I hoped it took six months or less Obi: for the initialization phase, but it might take less. It might take a bit more, but it's fun. and that's the next phase. After that, we then go into the growth phase. Once we know we've got something that's repeatable, that really. is at the quality level that users need for it to be used a daily part of their life. Obi: We'll then go into growth phase and that's where we'll really, you know, pull down, put our pedal to the metal and, and just repeat, repeat, repeat until. You know, billions of people are using this around the world, but that, that's phase three. And I'm, I'm very focused on this phase. You don't want to rush into phase three. Obi: We're not going to rush to grow the numbers, until we are very sure that we've got something that's really slick, really reliable, and where we're meeting a clear demonstrable demand consistently. And that process is called human centered design. So it's not focused on this is my app, this is what I want, and I'm going to keep trying to make you agree with what I want. Obi: this is what we've built. This is our first stab at it, but we're going to keep iterating until it serves your need properly. And that might require some, this is what makes this one very hard because it requires a very different mindset to the phase one. Phase one is like We can do everything and the impossible is possible phase two is really being pragmatic. Obi: Or very self critical and being very open to killing your darlings, as the saying goes, you know, and saying this is not working or, or there's some fundamental issue. I mean, I don't think this will be the case at this stage, but if the feedback was from our market that we need to make some fundamental changes that would mean that 80 percent of the code we built has to be thrown away and have to start again. Obi: Well, that's what we're being told. we've got far enough to think that's highly unlikely. cause most of the feedback, like some of the big pieces of feedback cause how can we make it easier to set up federations? So that's a really good sign because lots of people said there's only going to be a demand for like free federations and it's going to be very centralized. Obi: Well, a very large percentage. I don't want to give it. These are the very large percentage of all our queries so far have been, how can I set my own federation up? So even based on those queries, there's not going to be free. You know, I can put it that way. Luke: Super quick question on that, I guess, is it the Fetiman software? Is it on, for example, the note in a box, solutions, the umbrellas, start nines, et Obi: Well, that's part of the feedback that we're getting. For example, can we set it up? Can you integrate with Umbro? Can you integrate with Start9? Can you integrate with RastyBlitz? can you make it simpler to set up? So, I think, a lot of that's done by the FediMint team. Obi: Because remember, FediMint is an OpusSource project versus a different OpusSource project. At some point in the future, it will be two different open source projects. However, we are using them as the bedrock, because if you want to custody significant amounts of value We know that you want to go multisig. Obi: Multisig for significant amounts of value is the best standard, and also you want privacy, so then privacy and multisig, that's FedEvent, basically. but, on the FedE side, we can do a lot as well. So we can provide, even though it's open source software, we can take it and provide it. Obi: again, it will be open source, but tools to help you build it really easily or put efforts to integrate with people like Umbrell and Start9. we've already had an integration with an organization called Clover, which we've been working on, and you're going to see more on that. But from our point of view, that's a lot of where the work is. Obi: Also you want to connect this to the Lightning Network. And connected to the Lightning Network and maintaining a reliable connection is not easy. it can be complicated for people, especially managing liquidity. And now again, over time, I could get easier, but right now it's not easy. Obi: There are organizations like, Breeze and others who make that easy. and you just saw an announcement from Erik, where they've already started, showing connectivity and support for LDK, which is this cross, LSP standard. So, again, we at Fedi can provide tools for FediMint, or people who are using FediMint, whether it's with Fedi or someone else, that make it really easy. Obi: And again, our aim is one click, and you have a connection. You can set up your own lightning node that's set up in a relatively good way, so it'd be relatively reliable, but you don't have to manage it yourself. Or, you can connect to one of these LSP's and for a fee, they'll just handle all the light and management, but you're still in a trust minimized way. Obi: So there's, but given all the feedback we're getting, it's not, this is completely wrong. You need to go back to the drawing board, it's all, okay, I get it, but you need to go further. You need to integrate with more. You need to make it easier. so that's a good sign that we're on the right track. Knut: Yeah. So, what about this date when you go open source? is that public or, when you have to go open source, it might be then or Obi: in the, it's, it's, it's memorializing the business source license. In fact, we memorialized it. We actually have this memo memorializing when it happened. when we launched Freddy, we, we did this thing on the Bitcoin block. You can see it. We were established on a certain block. Obi: And we said Fedi is here. When we, quietly on May the 4th, we also put something that said Fedi colon and it was a hash. That hash is a hash of a memo. And the memo, which is on our, Fedi's got an open source, you can see the link and you can verify it. Showed that on May the 4th, the code became business source license. Obi: And by January the 3rd, 2026 or earlier, we must go, open source. And if we were to shut down or to stop development, we will instantly go open source. and so, so that, and we put it in block. I tried to find a core block. So it was block 8, 42069. It was actually was the block that was the core block as well. Obi: so yeah, it's, it's there. And, that's the date. We, we cannot go open source later than that. And we may very well go open source a lot earlier than that. Wrapping Up Luke: Hey Obi, I think we could keep on grilling you on this and that little detail, but this has been really enlightening, fantastic to see how far this has come, even since our last conversation back in October, and yeah, just looking forward to everything you guys are doing, and I guess just as a last thing, people can now grab the Fedi app and Public federations are available to start to try Obi: federations and there are, and you can set up your own federation There's a lot, I don't like to talk too much about what's coming in future because we just work on everything in order of customer demands. So if customer demand comes in, that changes the order, but we're working really hard to make it, It's already easy for if you're quite technical, but we're going to make it easier and easier to set up a federation, so keep looking out because that's a very common request to set up a federation yourself, and we want to see what people do with it, create Fedi mods, create federations, use it, give us feedback, and we will continue to work on making an incredible, Open source interface portal to this freedom technology world. Luke: Absolutely fantastic. We'll need to keep on having these conversations regularly, get updates because always fantastic to hear about this and good luck moving forward and I think we'll be trying some FETI stuff in our futures here. Lots of cool things have come out of Nostriga and Baltic. Honey Badger by Luke: I'm exciting to see that. And anywhere else you want to direct our listeners and viewers. Obi: So for Fedi, that's probably the best place because everything, that's a jumping off ground for everything else. And that's Fedi, F E D I dot X, Y, Z. Luke: Fantastic. Obi: One of the cooler things that came out in Nostriga and Honeybadger was of course, yes, the inverse of clown world, our new book, and we want to give you one. if you're not given one during this weekend, you'll find it on bitcoininfinitystore. com. Thank you very much. Luke: and we need to sign it for you. Yeah, we'll do that offline. But Obi, thank you again. And this has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show. Thank you for listening. Obi: Thanks.