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I try and get attacked for it. Just gonna give up. Seems like the number of people who care about this is dwindling by the day anyways.
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Shilled as easy onboarding for adoption. It’s almost fiat. Path of least resistance. Most people do not consider the sacrifice made for convenience. This has been clearly demonstrated over last 15-20 years unfortunately
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I talked to miljan last week and he said hes aware of the concerns. I suggested a degraded experience when the caching relay is down and still let people read from their relays. I think they will need to do it for a good experience unless they can scale their relay somehow and make it more redundant.
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I have never lost a canary in any of my coal mines.
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it’s weird there is less fucks given about this issue. I suspect most [users] don’t actually grok the potential reality and the reason why the primal model i so suboptimal.
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Primal is the canary in the coal mine. It’s good to call them out as the example. And the app sucks. At least on iOS.
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People think im doing this to shit on primal all the time. Im so tired of this fight and its not my point. Im thinking about what would happen if certain ways of doing things took off and how it might affect the network. My beef is not with primal specifically, the point is the next big VC funded app with 100 devs could do this and it would amplify the badness by a lot
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You can do that but it wouldn’t be very efficient and you would get fewer results, and wouldn’t scale. They will have to do it on their relay if they aren’t already. We can do it locally but there is no corresponding remote REQ we can execute to get the data. Maybe just negentropy syncing all the zaps for the day would work well enough for a little while.
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Oh you mean you can’t send a REQ with this level of detail.
i thought they were pulling what they can pull at the level the relay can understand from a REQ and then applying the filter on client side.
or at least everyone else can do that. I thought that’s the idea of having a local relay and a DB. You can cut slice and filter as your please, no?
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I’m a Damus Maxi.
Tried Primal. Didn’t like Primal. So fuck Primal.
Keep it simple. Damus & Wallet of Satoshi = happier better life.
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It filters based on min zaps, excluded words, and things like that, you can’t really do that without a custom relay as relays aren’t really supposed to know about zaps.
nip50 was nice because it standardizes fulltext search, so i could make damus local search compatible with relays. I can’t really do min zap advanced search “properly” without a relay nip, but i can hack it with nostrdb at least, and just try to pull down as much data as possible.
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It's so insane to me that an primal has users. They were requested to implement amber 1 year ago and still haven't, meanwhile 75% of new android apps implement within the first month of release.
Are you thinking that they have a DB that is storing as much notes as possible for search or what?
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Disagree. Incentives in a commoditized open source market encourage cooperation/interoperability due to everyone desiring network effects from each other. Siloing is stupid for VCs.
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The primal advance search is not just a filter?
Or is a filter something we can’t do right now?
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all the best all*/
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I’m just adding local nip50 search support to damus clients, but this looks like a toy when compared to primals advanced search which you can’t really do on the protocol at the moment. So when i launch it people are going to be like “lame, we already had this on primal”. So unless I do something proprietary or spend the next 6 months trying to get advanced search into the protocol, then proprietary clients will always win.
My only conclusion is that clients will start competing with each other using off-spec advanced features, which means that you won’t be able to build a pure client anymore. Then nostr fails.
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shiny fades fast ime & all the best guys*/ i applaud U for a lot of this space so far-T Y
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damus+notedb+outbox retrofit will tip the scales to outbox. im here for it! 🌝moon
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Where is this happening now?
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my time preference throttle is like an ipod circle dial
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can’t wait to ship outbox in notedeck this month! had to spend a year building the tech to support it but will be worth it.
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i will refer you to my late night ramblings on this subject 😂
nostr:nevent1qqs2xu9ttu68mz0sfz6fwkrcdngl4kl9y0sperjjgs4v4clk9eqmr5gprpmhxue69uhhqunfd46hxtnwdaehgu339e3k7mf0qgs8eseg5zxak2hal8umuaa7laxgxjyll9uhyxp86c522shn9gj8crsrqsqqqqqpt27cxy
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Why would devs do the hard thing and pour their effort into getting something working at the protocol level thats already available by some popular proprietary nostr app? Especially when they have the majority of the users and they are happy with the solution.
The very few people doing protocol dev will stop doing it. Users will be like: wow you got something working in a janky way which we've already had two years ago on NostrGram, who cares. It's becoming not very rewarding work.
You could have easily built zaps in a way that worked only on one app and all the users used that app because its an awesome feature. Building zaps was non-trivial and required lots of work between many different parties. It's sad we're moving away from this way of building things.
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Dark thought
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Surely you are right to be focused on this at this time. What it makes me think of though, is zooming out for the perspective that the most important principles are more popular right now than ever before. Open source and sound money. Individual liberty and family localism. I believe that is because there are those who stay humble and stack sats as you do.
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Is this a more serious risk if clients with traction stop writing events to outside (as opposed to reading events from outside)? I see that on the read side this introduces risks like seeing content that is out of date, or in the worst case purposefully altered.
Or is it that the read side alone comes with its own potential implications?
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outbox is for clients who connect to relays, im talking about clients that don’t even talk to relays, which happens to be the most popular client at the moment, and probably most clients in the future if this model wins.
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I'm curious about that too—specifically does outbox make sense in a fully-cached context? As I understand outbox is for selecting the right relays for the right people, but in a fully-cached context the "right relay" is only ever your cache service. Or is it maybe that outbox can be used to more efficiently fill the cache? Or would you even care about efficiency if your pretty much indexing everything anyway?
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agree
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Build out interoperable solutions, reject proprietary solutions entirely.
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Maybe it’s a funnel thing, like Bitcoin itself? My hope is that in time and with understanding people will migrate from the shiny to the ethically sound, principled clients that share their values and better defend the decentralised vision of the movement. But the hard path will always be harder 🫂
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The Proprietary Nostr Relay Wars 🫡
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I've started noticing a lot of notes missing from my follow feed in recent weeks. I see them when I visit a profile but they never make it to my feed. I suspect that is related. I don't know a damn thing about programming but I'm pretty okay at pattern recognition.
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I think the solution is twofold: improve the relay API, also implementing HyperLogLog suggested by nostr:npub180cvv07tjdrrgpa0j7j7tmnyl2yr6yr7l8j4s3evf6u64th6gkwsyjh6w6, and promote more creative client-side business logics, with custom storage layers that can be used to optimize data aggregation and filtering.
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😔
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All devs are guilty of creating off-protocol implementations.
But we should leave non-nip approved implementation in beta software.
Because at this stage Twitter can claim they are running nostr now (with their current implementation).
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outbox fixes dis. or does it? we wont know till 2/3 the network using it..
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Prediction: to compete with proprietary nostr relays, others will have to build their own proprietary apis to deliver similar value. People will stop caring about interoperability and nostr just becomes isolated twitter-like islands just like before. Most clients then become light clients for these proprietary relays, and users lose control over which relays they can choose to talk to.
This is starting to happen today, how do we prevent this? VCs and people trying to make money won’t care about the hard work of protocol dev and interoperability, in fact, its in their interest to explicitly make it harder for other clients to have similar functionality via protocol improvements.
nostr could go down a very bad path very soon. Which way do you choose anon? Give up on the protocol for shiny new features? Or support less featured clients focused on interoperability? I suspect most will choose the former 😔
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Some ideas:
- Counter for replies in the root note
- Reactions / Zaps in the inbox notification (with filters/aggretagion)
- Zoom images to full screen without opening the browser
- Drafts
- Login via (multi-signatire) bunker
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Keyboard-only friendy navigation.
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🤣🤣🤣
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Would be nice to have negentropy support in chorus.
If it helps, here's how I implemented it for nostr-relay-builder: https://github.com/rust-nostr/nostr/blob/25a76ff3d90ea4307dd1078ccc2b910619571971/crates/nostr-relay-builder/src/local/inner.rs#L614
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Very quick tag of over a thousand people, then I will use it 🫡
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What feature should I add to Gossip (or Chorus) next?
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This already runs on damus ios. Its designed for battery, efficiency, and storage in mind.
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Can this run efficiently on a smartphone? Thinking in storage & battery?
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Alice...Aliki Vougiouklaki for Your eyes only.... https://m.primal.net/NgiW.jpg
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picture title:Travel timelines to secret portals :
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Love became worst than a tragedy
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Love has lost itself to apathy
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yet i yearn to reach a heart to walk with him in this cruel world
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people are made of money
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i Sink myself in an ocean of goodbyes
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I search in vain for a kind shoulder someone to reach out and hold..
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Man in black from San Francisco.....searching for the handsome knight ,who knows...maybe tonight's the night..
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A wild ocean a living breathing entityforever in motion..
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Moments and memory traces,,An empty armchair taunting love's lost
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Correct, that's the gross amount. To get net you need to deduct the transaction fee. Jokes aside, point taken, I'll stop pumping your posts. Best of luck with Notedeck etc.
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gross
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Pumped with 3422 sats BCH, see https://pump.coinmachin.es/ (bitcoincash:qraaqeypldwlcuz4eg0p5eh65fkgfcpv4ckur80f2f).
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Pump statistics: 3422 sats BCH from 1 pumpers. See https://pump.coinmachin.es/ for more info.
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🫡
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Thank you for writing this in C so it's a snap to use with lisp cffi.
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picture of nostrdb nip50 fulltext search support in action. search for words or phrases, with additional filtering on author, kind, etc.
Heres an example of me querying everytime i’ve said “damus mail” on my local notedeck db using the nostrdb commandline tool. Next step is building a ui for this in notedeck and damus iOS.
https://cdn.jb55.com/s/7fb82ecdc5148f46.png
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This is excellent!
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I love this!
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🎨🖼️🅱️
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This app is awesome. This art is awesome.
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Nothin’ to see ’ere
2024
Oil on linen
80 x 60 inches
https://m.primal.net/Nbui.jpg
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Welcome to Nostr Miel!
Trilled to know more about your ancestral practices related to nature.
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Prudently... 😅
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Welcome to the nostr Miel 🫂
Good to have you around
pv 🤙
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Welcome 🤠🤙
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Well, well, well ...
https://boards.4chan.org/biz/thread/59590548
https://m.primal.net/NftG.png
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Positive thoughts manifest positive things
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Welcome 🙏
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nostr:nevent1qqsf7fah5ahyvuf79ukl2yn7m323fw9t8mt4sjer92542t6nfhu2mdcprfmhxue69uhhq7tjv9kkjepwve5kzar2v9nzucm0d5hsygrmmmmmugka3evlgcqwq3922wsul966nhrayl04svauwldhsjjcq5psgqqqqqqsfpq2mc
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Yes, as soon as I add the management area to invalidate bunkers, existing npubs will also be able to create their own bunker.
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Yes, many people suggested this, I think I will replace the KYC part.
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Welcome! Here's a good starting place to get caught up 👇
nostr:nevent1qqsdhmu9sazj5u5p87s5j0pc20u7rthqxqhjclhsmxsk8f9645mfvwcpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhsygqqrzm7uvlmy5uyxcuuvt3f9lk8qznf4yas3m3hf3da49cunvu4vspsgqqqqqqsakf2h8
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The future is here
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welcome
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How do I create multi sig bunker for current (this) nsec?
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just came to comments to ask this too 😊
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Welcome
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will there be an option in the future for existing npubs to use this to create multisig keys 🔑
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Sup Mushroom girl!
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Cringe
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I'd say "no identity documents or phone number required" instead of No KYC
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Welcome to Nostr! ⚡️⚡️⚡️
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Tried it. It works really well.
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this looks like a game changer nostr:note1qqqrulwlqd8rh7866pkyeg0gkt6rjlfgufy4eckqpp5p25yy6s3sc4y0lm
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welcome nostr
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Really solid. The copy is a little lengthy. Hard to read. Might put off new comers.
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Welcome! 🫂
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hola
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Welcome!
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Welcome to #Nostr !
https://image.nostr.build/e0206a2731377fd7abdbed70b0aff7f04b350ac5022f73eb4e2b096223c5b575.gif
Suggestion to find whom to follow:
Follow topics using hastags, click on this hashtag: #_rockclimbing, and you will have the option to follow it if using the right mobile or web browser client. A good one to follow is #_introductions and #_askNostr (remove the space after the hastag, I added a space to avoid spamming the community)
Suggestion for Nostr Clients:
Exclusive for Android:
nostr:nprofile1qqs24yz8xftq8kkdf7q5yzf4v7tn2ek78v0zp2y427mj3sa7f34ggjccd5eyg is an excellent choice, feature rich, supports privacy, tiktok like feeds, multi user, supports #Amber (more security), #TOR, private chats, excellent look and feel, it is ahead of most clients by far.
Working for Android and iOS:
nostr:nprofile1qqs9ajjs5p904ml92evlkayppdpx2n3zdrq6ejnw2wqphxrzmd62swspzemhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuvrcvd5xzapwvdhk6qgdwaehxw309aukzcn49ekk2qghwaehxw309aex2mrp0yh8x6tpd4ehgu3wvdhk6ynf30t is a good alternative, more like Telegram, including chat groups, channels and voice and video calls, all encrypted e2e. It is powerful with privacy as well, it has secret chats and it supports Amber, #TOR in the settings "Use SOCKS proxy" (just install Orbot and in the settings be sure it allows background starts you don't need to have it running as VPN). It has a wallet built in and interesting features of its own.
Exclusive for iOS:
nostr:nprofile1qqsraldwhvwcjgltmxwfu7kw8dqef2692yhzheuurd7k3kfy8cxjdqg9cvnm5 (users talk positive about this client,
give it a try)
Suggestion for Wallets:
Depends on your technical level and how much time are you willing to spend understanding and setting them up:
1. The impatient with no time to waste and who doesn't care to use custodial wallets:
Go for Wallet of Satoshi (https://www.walletofsatoshi.com/), add it to your profile, it doesn't have the NWC (network wallet connect) setup, but you really don't need it. When you try to zap someone, the wallet will open and the invoice will load, easy and setup free. You are set. (they don't work in USA, unless you use a VPN)
You may try as well https://coinos.io nostr:nprofile1qqst4qyeqenw7zm0fwjsty68h6cnys5jre2xd8ngqpjv5a2j26s78fspzemhxue69uhhyetvv9ujucm0d9hx7uewd9hj75a0pev , rich with features and web based, you can receive emails every time you are zapped too. Very cool wallet, the dev team rocks, they are doing the good work creating more Bitcoin awareness and helping businesses to accept it. It does support ecash and recently started to support #Bolt12, just missing #Amber support to be my favorite (it would make it optional to be non custodial)
2. The curious one with not much technical expertise but eager to learn:
You have few options here to play that are interesting:
2.1. nostr:nprofile1qqstxwlea9ah3u6kjjszu6a7lrnhqkfh8eptp2z6v0e9558tlkkl2rgpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhsz9mhwden5te0wfjkccte9ec8y6tdv9kzumn9wshszxnhwden5te0wfjkccte9ekkjmnfvf5hguewvdshx6p07xr4s5 (mobile app, you can buy from them your own address like yourname@minibits.cash BOLT11), the app is well polished, user friendly and the devs are hands on, responsive and active in the #Nostr community.
2.2. nostr:nprofile1qqst4qyeqenw7zm0fwjsty68h6cnys5jre2xd8ngqpjv5a2j26s78fspzemhxue69uhhyetvv9ujucm0d9hx7uewd9hj75a0pev , they support #eCash, #Bolt11 and #Bolt12, so you can play here, just beware, you are signing with your own nsec, so for testing, make a new account and play around, that until they support Amber or a similar way to sign in, can't wait.
Two good options to play and learn, all support #Cashu and #LN⚡, start learning about #Cashu, IMO a game changer for small payments. Sovereign app offers novelty features I consider a must have, wait until you learn about CLANs and the way sovereign does the recoveries, mind blowing...
3. The tech savvy
3.1 GetAlby running AlbyHub (a bit pricey unless you do all yourself, not my cup of tea, but people in the community loves them)
3.2 npub.cash - get your npub followed by @npub.cash and use it as your wallet address to receive anonymous private #LN payments and #cashu payments. You can pay in the wallet web site for a custom address as well (cool)
3.3 nuts.cash - same as above, just not an option to buy an address, meaning no #Bolt11 support
Check my nostr site:
https://rod.npub.pro
You can get your own, give it a try, start writing!
Subscribe to my free substack content:
https://rodsx.substack.com
Last but not least:
https://video.nostr.build/c15a8f80b0ee38024f680e5dc080c07163798f5dcf622d5dc0429a3bd9eb0ffb.mp4
Enjoy Nostr!
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Pura Vida 🍯
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Welcome to Nostr Miel!